Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby gokeefe » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:26 pm

At $17,000,000 that's about 50 engineers for a year (avg. $340,000 all in). Not a bad deal at all considering generally high costs of labor.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby jamestrains1 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:41 pm

The images below are from the Hudson Tunnel Project DEIS, they contain cross section images of the existing North River Tunnel, the proposed North River Tunnel, and the new (Gateway) North River Tunnel.

Existing and Proposed Cross Section of current North River Tunnel
HUDSON TUNNEL PROJECT
Draft Environmental Impact Statement and Draft Section 4(f) Evaluation
Chapter 2: Project Alternatives and Description of the Preferred Alternative

http://www.hudsontunnelproject.com/documents/deis/02%20Alternatives%20and%20Preferred%20Alternative.pdf
see pdf pg. 41
EXIST-NRT.PNG

PROPOSED_NRT.PNG



New (Gateway) North River Tunnel Cross Section
HUDSON TUNNEL PROJECT
Draft Environmental Impact Statement and Draft Section 4(f) Evaluation
Chapter 2: Project Alternatives and Description of the Preferred Alternative

http://www.hudsontunnelproject.com/documents/deis/02%20Alternatives%20and%20Preferred%20Alternative.pdf
see pdf pg. 24
NEW_TUNNEL.PNG

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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby jamestrains1 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:17 pm

Interesting Detail - New Tunnel Capacity Limitations due to NFPA 130

The new (Gateway) North River Tunnel tubes will have their inherent capacity limited due to strict adherence to National Fire Protection Association 130, which, among stipulating that that tunnels longer than 2,500ft require cross-passageways spaced every 800ft or less, also stipulates that only one train be present in each ventilation zone.

To put it succinctly, only one train at a time can be in either of these new Gateway Tunnel tubes. This is a limitation that does not exist with the current two North River Tunnel tubes, or with the four East River Tunnel tubes.

HUDSON TUNNEL PROJECT
Draft Environmental Impact Statement and Draft Section 4(f) Evaluation
Chapter 2: Project Alternatives and Description of the Preferred Alternative

http://www.hudsontunnelproject.com/documents/deis/02%20Alternatives%20and%20Preferred%20Alternative.pdf
see pdf pg. 44
In addition, the new Hudson River Tunnel’s ventilation system would also reduce capacity in comparison to the North River Tunnel: compliance with the latest life-safety standard (i.e., NFPA 130) would require that only one train be present in each ventilation zone, a capacity constraint that does not exist for the North River Tunnel.


CAPACITY.PNG




Another interesting detail, the new tunnel tubes will have an outside diameter of approximately 28ft which is 1.5ft smaller than the 29.5ft outside diameter of the vehicular Holland Tunnel tubes completed in 1927. The Tunnel Boring Machines (TBMs) for the new tunnel themselves will have a diameter of approximately 30ft.
HUDSON TUNNEL PROJECT Draft Environmental Impact Statement and Draft Section 4(f) Evaluation
Chapter 3: Construction Methods and Activities

see pdf pg. 7
http://www.hudsontunnelproject.com/documents/deis/03%20Construction%20Methods%20and%20Activities.pdf
TBM.PNG



HUDSON TUNNEL PROJECT
Draft Environmental Impact Statement and Draft Section 4(f) Evaluation
Chapter 2: Project Alternatives and Description of the Preferred Alternative

see pdf pg. 23
http://www.hudsontunnelproject.com/documents/deis/02%20Alternatives%20and%20Preferred%20Alternative.pdf
Tunnel-Diameter.PNG




One of the largest cost drivers of the project is the large amount (15) of cross passages. In particular, the cross passages that will be required mid-river are expected to be most costly and challenging as they involve ground freezing.
HUDSON TUNNEL PROJECT
Draft Environmental Impact Statement and Draft Section 4(f) Evaluation
Chapter 2: Project Alternatives and Description of the Preferred Alternative

see pdf pg. 23
http://www.hudsontunnelproject.com/documents/deis/02%20Alternatives%20and%20Preferred%20Alternative.pdf
The two tubes of the new Hudson River Tunnel would be connected by cross passages
approximately every 750 feet, for a total of 15 cross passages. Cross passages would be
provided in both the land portion and the river portion of the tunnel. Fire-rated doors would be
located at the start of the cross passages in each tube to separate the tubes.

Tunnel-Diameter.PNG



If you are interested in further reading regarding NFPA 130, I highly recommend the study below which was presented at the American Public Transportation Association (APTA) 2015 Rail Conference in Salt Lake City, UT.
Cross-passageways vs. Emergency Exit Stairways in Rail Tunnels
https://www.apta.com/mc/rail/previous/2015rail/presentations/Presentations/JUSTIN%20EDENBAUM%20-%20Cross-PassagewaysVsStairs-Edenbaum.pdf
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby bostontrainguy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:54 pm

Looks like a lot if wasted space under that Genesis that could be used to "future-proof" the new tunnels and allow for higher bi-level equipment in the near future.

Anyone have similar diagrams of the East River tunnels? They will have to be rebuilt or replaced some day too.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby jamestrains1 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:25 pm

jamestrains1 wrote:One of the largest cost drivers of the project is the large amount (15) of cross passages. In particular, the cross passages that will be required mid-river are expected to be most costly and challenging as they involve ground freezing.
HUDSON TUNNEL PROJECT
Draft Environmental Impact Statement and Draft Section 4(f) Evaluation
Chapter 2: Project Alternatives and Description of the Preferred Alternative

see pdf pg. 23
http://www.hudsontunnelproject.com/documents/deis/02%20Alternatives%20and%20Preferred%20Alternative.pdf
The two tubes of the new Hudson River Tunnel would be connected by cross passages
approximately every 750 feet, for a total of 15 cross passages. Cross passages would be
provided in both the land portion and the river portion of the tunnel. Fire-rated doors would be
located at the start of the cross passages in each tube to separate the tubes.




More information regarding the construction of the cross passages can be found in this presentation on the ARC project. Although a different project, the current project maintains a near similar alignment prior to the Hudson river.


Hudson River Tunnels, Mega Projects, and Risk – A Designer’s Perspective
https://engineering.purdue.edu/PGS/past-events/2011/presentations/Chapman-PGS-2011.pdf
see pdf pg. 16
CP1.PNG


CP2.PNG


CP3.PNG

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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby east point » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:32 pm

bostontrainguy wrote:Looks like a lot if wasted space under that Genesis that could be used to "future-proof" the new tunnels and allow for higher bi-level equipment in the near future.

Anyone have similar diagrams of the East River tunnels? They will have to be rebuilt or replaced some day too.



@ of the tunnels were severly damaged by "SANDY" . One is planned to be repaired soon which started the thread about the "L" tunnel.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby jamestrains1 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:50 pm

bostontrainguy wrote:Looks like a lot if wasted space under that Genesis that could be used to "future-proof" the new tunnels and allow for higher bi-level equipment in the near future.

Anyone have similar diagrams of the East River tunnels? They will have to be rebuilt or replaced some day too.


Although I am unable to locate similar diagrams of the East River Tunnels, below are some comparable images of the East River Tunnel, many more can be found via a google search. I hope this helps.
fig12.png


fig11.png
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby JamesRR » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:55 pm

Passing through A Interlocking lately, I've noticed a ton of work happening where Yard "E" used to be. It appears they are breaking through the bedrock at the west end of that area (just south of the tunnel portals for Empire Tunnel and NR Tunnels) - which I'd assume is to connect the Tunnel Box from 10-11 Avenues into Penn Station proper.

Anyone have confirmation on this? I couldn't find anything on Amtrak's pages.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby mtuandrew » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:12 pm

bostontrainguy wrote:Looks like a lot if wasted space under that Genesis that could be used to "future-proof" the new tunnels and allow for higher bi-level equipment in the near future.

I’d love if Amtrak could figure out a resilient support system that would provide the same or better vibration dampening as ballast, as durably, but two feet shorter. Obviously not in the cards for right now.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby EuroStar » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:35 am

JamesRR wrote:Passing through A Interlocking lately, I've noticed a ton of work happening where Yard "E" used to be. It appears they are breaking through the bedrock at the west end of that area (just south of the tunnel portals for Empire Tunnel and NR Tunnels) - which I'd assume is to connect the Tunnel Box from 10-11 Avenues into Penn Station proper.

Anyone have confirmation on this? I couldn't find anything on Amtrak's pages.


Negative! The work that you see in Yard E is related to the transformation of the Post Office into the Moynihan Station. I think that they re-supported and reconfigured the area above where the truck loading docks for the mail were and found it necessary to modify the columns below. New York State and the private developers are paying for that. I have not been able to identify what the dig at the west end of Yard E is for, but note that the area is west of 9th Avenue(the Post Office is East of 9th) and represents the only open area above the station left.

There are several areas in Yard A and Yard D that have had foundations poured in and rebar sticking out 3-4 feet of the ground for a while. All of that is currently under the decked portion that was erected a few years ago. My best guess is that these are for re-supporting 9th Avenue, but there has been no activity related to them in months.

The tunnel box will connect to Yard A eliminating the Yard completely. Yard A and the existing tunnel box are separated by 10th Avenue which will need to be dug up for them to connect. It is a bit sad (but not surprising given the other priorities) that they have not done that already allowing them to use the tunnel box as a storage yard. I guess train storage is mostly NJT's problem.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby Tadman » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:17 pm

With all the tunnel and bridge work the NEC needs, you'd think the northeastern lawmakers could fund a large capital project the west wants funded that is hung up and get the tunnels and bridges funded as well. A trade.

Put another way, with all the tunnel and bridge work the NECE needs, you'd think the predominantly left/democrat leaning politicians of the northeast could trade for a long capital project (like a wall) that the right/republican-leaning politicians out west want.

No commentary made here on the need/want for either item, morality of either item, or whether it's a national or local issue. I'm only commenting that the timing is right for each party to get something they want by trading. Of course that doesn't sell news nearly as well.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby dowlingm » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:46 am

you are leaving out that:

1. The wall is the President's priority, not the GOP's (ask the GOP congressman whose district would have one of the longest sections)
2. Some of the problem is the President's animus towards Schumer
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/11/29/ ... -new-york/
3. Even if you satisfy 1 and 2, you have to persuade the Dems that Gateway is the ask they want for that monstrosity as opposed to any other policy they have
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby eolesen » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:39 pm

Trump already offered back in July 2018 to meet in the middle and agree on spending for both the border and Gateway projects. Schumer said no.

Surprised that didn't get mentioned earlier... here's a link:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... ure-218839
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby JamesRR » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:30 am

EuroStar wrote:
JamesRR wrote:Passing through A Interlocking lately, I've noticed a ton of work happening where Yard "E" used to be. It appears they are breaking through the bedrock at the west end of that area (just south of the tunnel portals for Empire Tunnel and NR Tunnels) - which I'd assume is to connect the Tunnel Box from 10-11 Avenues into Penn Station proper.

Anyone have confirmation on this? I couldn't find anything on Amtrak's pages.


Negative! The work that you see in Yard E is related to the transformation of the Post Office into the Moynihan Station. I think that they re-supported and reconfigured the area above where the truck loading docks for the mail were and found it necessary to modify the columns below. New York State and the private developers are paying for that. I have not been able to identify what the dig at the west end of Yard E is for, but note that the area is west of 9th Avenue(the Post Office is East of 9th) and represents the only open area above the station left.

There are several areas in Yard A and Yard D that have had foundations poured in and rebar sticking out 3-4 feet of the ground for a while. All of that is currently under the decked portion that was erected a few years ago. My best guess is that these are for re-supporting 9th Avenue, but there has been no activity related to them in months.

The tunnel box will connect to Yard A eliminating the Yard completely. Yard A and the existing tunnel box are separated by 10th Avenue which will need to be dug up for them to connect. It is a bit sad (but not surprising given the other priorities) that they have not done that already allowing them to use the tunnel box as a storage yard. I guess train storage is mostly NJT's problem.


I may have confused my yards - but I only meant the far west wall in what is the only open area left. They're really breaking into the bedrock there. Additional bedrock has been exposed south of Interlocking A, with some tiebacks installed. Obviously none of this is related to the post office work as its too far west. I do wonder if all of this is to prep for new track leads that will eventually come in from the new tunnels. There are a ton of concrete pours going on in that area too - but again, not sure what purpose unless there are plans to deck over that last area to connect with the new commercial development going on above.
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Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby gokeefe » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:19 pm

An additional $650M in Gateway tunnel money and some other goodies made their way into the spending bill passed last week.

The spending bill that averted another partial government shutdown contains funding that could be used to build a new rail tunnel under the Hudson River.

Members of New Jersey's Capitol Hill delegation lauded the funding, roughly $650 million, that can be used to support the $13.5 billion project.
...
The bill also enables New York and New Jersey to count federal loans as part of their local match for the project. That was a common practice until the Trump administration.
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