Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby ALP45DP 4515 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:53 pm

This may be slightly off topic but I spent all week riding the Acela and the Regional back and forth between NY Penn and PHL 30th Street Station. I went on the Acela four times to PHL and four times on the regional back to NYP. I was highly impressed with the ride quality of the Regional's business class car each way. It was very smooth. I wonder if these cars have some more life left in them to be used for other services.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby Nasadowsk » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:18 pm

ALP45DP 4515 wrote: I was highly impressed with the ride quality of the Regional's business class car each way. It was very smooth. I wonder if these cars have some more life left in them to be used for other services.


Try riding a train in some other developed country some day.

The Amfleets? They're 40 years old. Time to replace them. They'll make great razor blades.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby mtuandrew » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:34 pm

ALP45DP 4515 wrote:This may be slightly off topic but I spent all week riding the Acela and the Regional back and forth between NY Penn and PHL 30th Street Station. I went on the Acela four times to PHL and four times on the regional back to NYP. I was highly impressed with the ride quality of the Regional's business class car each way. It was very smooth. I wonder if these cars have some more life left in them to be used for other services.

Hoo boy this topic :P

Short answer no, long answer unlikely at best and never on Amtrak. The Acela Express (and cousin the MR90 EMU) is a good pattern for new Amfleet replacements though, minus the tilt gear and plus traps, if BBD returns the RFI.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby Matt Johnson » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:55 pm

If parts commonality/fleet standardization is a priority, does the existing Siemens California/midwest order factor into the numbers, or is it more of a lowest bidder deal by law?
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby mdvle » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:56 pm

gokeefe wrote:Siemens is by far the obvious choice for these cars. I will be very surprised if any other vendor even comes close to getting this contract.

I suspect CAF, Bombardier and Nippon Sharyo will bid but I doubt they will get selected. Hyundai-Rotem also seems like a likely bidder but unlikely winner given their recent history with the MBTA. Alstom is the potential spoiler for Siemens on comparable quality, experience and relationship with Amtrak.


It is pretty much a given that Siemens, Bombardier, Stadler and Talgo will all submit something given that they have all progressed to the RFP for VIA's fleet renewal (with final submissions due Oct 5 to VIA) so they will all have an FRA based design to try and sell.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:03 pm

mdvle wrote:It is pretty much a given that Siemens, Bombardier, Stadler and Talgo will all submit something given that they have all progressed to the RFP for VIA's fleet renewal (with final submissions due Oct 5 to VIA) so they will all have an FRA based design to try and sell.

Are Canadian stress standards as stringent as are the FRA's? After all, VIA operates European origin cars that, somehow, I think will never set a wheel on US rails.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby WesternNation » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:15 pm

Matt Johnson wrote:If parts commonality/fleet standardization is a priority, does the existing Siemens California/midwest order factor into the numbers, or is it more of a lowest bidder deal by law?


I would certainly hope Anderson isn’t stupid enough to think that the lowest bid is the best way to get something as highly engineered as the AM-1 replacement. Granted, Anderson wants them soon, but he also wants a proven design. That gives Siemens an advantage as stuff from Stadler would have to be modified for use in the US and other companies would need to create a design, which has baggage and will take time.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby mtuandrew » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:56 pm

WesternNation wrote:I would certainly hope Anderson isn’t stupid enough to think that the lowest bid is the best way to get something as highly engineered as the AM-1 replacement. Granted, Anderson wants them soon, but he also wants a proven design. That gives Siemens an advantage as stuff from Stadler would have to be modified for use in the US and other companies would need to create a design, which has baggage and will take time.

Anderson, Amtrak Mechanical, and the Amtrak planning department all have different priorities - whatever Anderson sees as the vision is only part of the eventual order. He seems to be the only one within the corporation suggesting DMUs for instance.

All the likely bidders have full American manufacturing capacity.
All the likely bidders either have a single-level FRA-Tier I coach or can whip something up within a year.
All the likely bidders have proven themselves as being able to build solid equipment, at least internationally if not domestically.

My money is on Siemens Viaggio Comfort, but N-S and BBD have proven designs and reputations to restore, and CRRC and Rotem both are willing to undercut the competition. Talgo and Stadler are outsiders and I have no idea how they plan to compete (especially Talgo with the high platform requirement), but will be fun to watch.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby mdvle » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:29 pm

Gilbert B Norman wrote:
mdvle wrote:It is pretty much a given that Siemens, Bombardier, Stadler and Talgo will all submit something given that they have all progressed to the RFP for VIA's fleet renewal (with final submissions due Oct 5 to VIA) so they will all have an FRA based design to try and sell.

Are Canadian stress standards as stringent as are the FRA's? After all, VIA operates European origin cars that, somehow, I think will never set a wheel on US rails.


VIA has specified FRA standards for the Fleet Renewal bids.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby ALP45DP 4515 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:51 pm

Nasadowsk wrote:
ALP45DP 4515 wrote: I was highly impressed with the ride quality of the Regional's business class car each way. It was very smooth. I wonder if these cars have some more life left in them to be used for other services.


Try riding a train in some other developed country some day.

The Amfleets? They're 40 years old. Time to replace them. They'll make great razor blades.


I've ridden many ICE trains in Germany as well the TGV's of France. I'm just saying for their age, they ride surprisingly well. I do however, agree that they are nowhere near as comfortable as the European trains I've ridden on. :-D
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby WesternNation » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:44 pm

Not exactly Amfleet but still someone relevant.

Bloomberg published an article stating that the Talgo trainsets do not conform to safety standards in the US, meaning those could be replaced as well.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/20 ... e=0a0e0915
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby eolesen » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:30 pm

mtuandrew wrote:[Anderson] seems to be the only one within the corporation suggesting DMUs for instance.


I seriously doubt that. Have you asked everyone in planning or mechanical?...

According to the Never-Anderson crowd, he's too dumb to come up with ideas on his own... so how did he magically discover DMU's.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby mtuandrew » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:47 pm

eolesen wrote:I seriously doubt that. Have you asked everyone in planning or mechanical?...

According to the Never-Anderson crowd, he's too dumb to come up with ideas on his own... so how did he magically discover DMU's.

Publicly, he is the most visible at Amtrak advocating for diesel or multi-mode MUs. I have no doubt there are others at NRPC who want to see next-gen DMUs. Whether or not Anderson originated the idea, he probably perfected the idea with Wick Moorman, and there are few who have more railroad cred than Wick does.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby SouthernRailway » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:52 pm

As long as the new cars have big windows (not Amfleet I ones), I’m happy.

I rode in a “refreshed” Amfleet I recently. The new carpet and cushions help. The cars still seemed old, though.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Postby BandA » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:05 pm

ALP45DP 4515 wrote:
Nasadowsk wrote:
ALP45DP 4515 wrote: I was highly impressed with the ride quality of the Regional's business class car each way. It was very smooth. I wonder if these cars have some more life left in them to be used for other services.


Try riding a train in some other developed country some day.

The Amfleets? They're 40 years old. Time to replace them. They'll make great razor blades.


I've ridden many ICE trains in Germany as well the TGV's of France. I'm just saying for their age, they ride surprisingly well. I do however, agree that they are nowhere near as comfortable as the European trains I've ridden on. :-D
Isn't 99% of the ride quality dependent on the trucks & the seat cushions? If the trucks have been rebuilt to factory spec (springs + rubber bits), and the interior has been completely redone, then it should ride excellent. These puppies are like the Boeing 707 in Airport. Amfleets will probably remain in service until metal fatigue cracks becomes a concern.
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