"Mythical" LV Alco C620

Discussion related to the Lehigh Valley Railroad and predecessors for the period 1846-1976. Originally incorporated as the Delaware, Lehigh, Schuylkill and Susquehanna Railroad Company.

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Postby lvrr325 » Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:42 pm

You could have had a way for the LV to exist, all it would have taken was a major player in the stocks in the late 50's/60's to buy the LV when the PRR was trying to hand it off in preparation for the PC merger.


My modern LV was purchased in 1962-3 by a holding company that would also purchase control of the Reading and CNJ. C&O had a 40% interest in the Reading they sold at a huge loss in the early 70's. To effectively compete with Conrail, a friendly southern connection is needed, and having the Reading gives you that - the company has the same connections as the expanded D&H did, although not in the same places.

I haven't gone in this direction, but you could make this LV be the road to take over the D&H in 1988. I have it as a middleman in the NYS&W container trains.

The problem is to continue past 1998 is tough if your timeline allows the Conrail breakup to occur pretty much as it did. You'd need to get some control of the NKP, Wabash, or both to have some leverage to maintain a friendly connection to the west. You lose all friendly connections to the south - some kind of agreements or conditions would have to be made to keep CSX/NS from routing it's NYC traffic onto it's own new system. But then again, this company existing would likely have a big effect on that merger/breakup. Maybe it wouldn't even happen at all.

As for power, I fudged a little and let the big Alcos stay as helpers in PA into the mid-90s, added SD40-2s, C32-8's and SD60Ms, plus a couple groups of rebuilds - either done in Sayre or done by Morrisen-Knudsen in Mountaintop - one set of SD40-2Ms (for fun, the cores include SD45s, one F45, and a couple of EL SDP45s), and a group of GP39-2Ms (from GP30, GP35, GP40). An SD45 looks pretty good in LV paint.
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Postby the missing link » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:16 pm

Nice replication!
If ALco. catalogued it and the Valley was a big customer, then a little modelers licence isn't off base.
New Haven had 10 C 415's proposed but ran out of money too
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Postby Lehighton_Man » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:55 pm

As if we are still sharing our Lehigh Valley "what ifs" i'll share mine:
My what if, goes like this:
As traffic dwindles on teh Valley in 71' a new prosperous investor comes to back up a dying breed. The Government starts to step in on teh Conrail part, but then the Oil Crisis hits, and Highways are dealt a deathly blow. Soon, the old LCL station in manchester is replaced with a heavy train-truck Intermodial unit, and the Apollo1, and apollo2 grow to new heights. On the power side, the LV begins to ditch the useless power, like older ALCos, and EMDS, like the S2s, FAs F3s, SW1s, and trades them in on credit for SD40-2s and newer Heavier ALCo C630s and 636s. The coal business, soon gets a new breath of life as new coal power-plants begin to open up in the midwest area, and Lehigh Valley expands greatly. The B&O sells the former NKP tracks to the LV, and now, the LV goes to Chicago. As life goes on, she keeps up with modern times, and lives well into the 21st century.
The ideal 21st century fleet?
SD40-2s
SD70M-2s
SD50s
SD90MACs
GP38-2s
GP40s
GP60s
SW1500s
MP15DCs
GE:
B23-7s
B40-8s
C36-7s
C40-8s
C44-9Ws
AC4400CWs

and the few, but glory road ALCos
the C628s
C630s,
(sold the C636s)
C420s
and the lone S2, just for show

My Glory LV...
:D
Cheers,
Sean
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Postby scottychaos » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:05 am

Sean,
cool roster! :P

IMO, I dont think a modern LV would have quite that many different kinds of units! but since we are talking about something that never happened, anything is possible! ;)

Im thinking the LV of the 1980's would have settled down to one or two major classes of road units..probably SD40-2's and maybe more GP38-2's or GP40-2's...Then by the turn of the century those units would be ready to retire, and SD70's would come on the scene..

did you see the LV SD70's?

http://gold.mylargescale.com/scottychaos/LVRR_SD70.html

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Postby ThePointyHairedBoss » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:21 pm

Sweet picture scotty! :-D I've always loved the red on the alco units, and these would have looked great! Sort of like an updated RSD-15 "alligator."
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Postby Lehighton_Man » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:00 pm

oh yes scotty, i sure have seen them. I am going to get a set of SD70ACes soon, and they are going to be painted in your fictional scheme, probably carrying the numbers of 800-801.
I just love to bring the LV into the 21st century, its too fun.
Oh yes, SD45s in LV would be nice.
I think i can come up with a few things to show off :-D
Cheers,
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Postby Lehighton_Man » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:00 pm

*edit* double post, sorry, computer is tooo slow!! ARGH!
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LV

Postby WNYP431 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:26 pm

May I join in on this? I'd like to contribute a few shots if I can figure out how.....my LV C44-9's are nice.

...anyway, I have a 32x12 two-level in HO that goes like this...

Even though the natural merger for the NY to Chicago route would have been the Nickel Plate and Lackawanna, the government wouldn't allow it. By 1963 when they realized the EL mistake, it was too late, so the LV was spun off by the Pennsy in a merger with the Nickel Plate.

By 1973, there are three major NY to Chicago routes....EL, PC, and LV, the LV handing off its Piggies to BN for a run to Seattle. Hurricane Agnes hits EL and PC a bit harder than the Valley, but with the energy crunch, all are in the black by 1977 as the government limits the size of tractor trailers to 40' and runs of no more than 250 miles. (If it must go farther, it must go by rail)

By 1982, LEHIGH begins negotiations with D&H to expand Apollo service in the Northeast, and the US government reinstitutes steel tariffs, saving the Bethlehem Steel plant and its new Basic Oxygen Furnace in Lackawanna. With the acquistion of the D&H, the LV purchases new SD40-2's, which serve them well in Apollo and Mercury Intermodal service until 1994, when they are replaced by C44-9W's. LV adds Canadian container pickups at Bison Intermodal Facility east of Buffalo, a mid-point transfer and classification yard, with Manchester and Sayre having been closed long ago.

With the turnaround of Bethlehem Steel, the LV sells it's interest in the Buffalo Creek Railroad to EL, and acquires operating control of the South Buffalo Railroad.

Whoof...

...I just got tired of seeing "China Shipping" and "Hamburg Sud" on containers tjese days, and started marking "LEHIGH" on mine......
"Backwards words say to used I. Again go I there...sh*t oh."
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LV

Postby WNYP431 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:26 pm

I am, however, having real trouble getting information on the LV west of Sayre. Buffalo and Niagara Falls were the entire reason for charging through those hills in PA, but it seems so hard to find track charts, photos, or other detailed information about Tifft Jct, Niagara Jct, and Geneva Jct.

I'm having to guess at alot of my track layouts.
"Backwards words say to used I. Again go I there...sh*t oh."
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Re: LV

Postby scottychaos » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:27 am

WNYP431 wrote:I am, however, having real trouble getting information on the LV west of Sayre. Buffalo and Niagara Falls were the entire reason for charging through those hills in PA, but it seems so hard to find track charts, photos, or other detailed information about Tifft Jct, Niagara Jct, and Geneva Jct.

I'm having to guess at alot of my track layouts.


Here is a map of Geneva:

Image

I will work on some maps for Tifft and Niagara Jct.

there are quite a few photos of the west end out there..although I agree not nearly as much as "east of sayre"..
I will take a look through all my books tonight and see which focus more on the west..(im at work right now..)

Scot

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Postby WNYP431 » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:15 am

Thanks alot. I consider myself a very lucky man to have been one of the few who have seen Seneca Lake from the cab of a locomotive working the Lehigh Main just south of the Seneca River Bridge.

Just a shadow of what it once was though.
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Postby TB Diamond » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:39 pm

Scot:

For the sake of clarity you (or the 1902 topo) missed some LVRR trackage in the Geneva area:

Toboggan (sp?) track off the MT just west of the NYC Falls Branch bridge down to the downtown Geneva freight house. Possibly this did not exisit prior to 1902?
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Postby scottychaos » Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:03 pm

TB Diamond wrote:Scot:

For the sake of clarity you (or the 1902 topo) missed some LVRR trackage in the Geneva area:

Toboggan (sp?) track off the MT just west of the NYC Falls Branch bridge down to the downtown Geneva freight house. Possibly this did not exisit prior to 1902?


Thanks TB,
I wasnt aware of that track..
where was it?
im not sure which NYC bridge you are referring to.

thanks,
Scot
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Postby TB Diamond » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:15 pm

Scot:

You are welcome. The tobbgan track left the MT west of the Lehigh Valley bridge over the old NYC Falls branch where GY Tower was located. The west abutment of this bridge remains and is in sight of the FGLR engine house and offices. In addition, it was just west of the road bridge that was a short distance west of the NYC overpass. Probably made this a bit confusing?

The old LVRR freight house remains standing in Geneva and is presently utilized by a business concern. The track gained its nickname as the decent from the MT was very steep.
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