LV C430s?

Discussion related to the Lehigh Valley Railroad and predecessors for the period 1846-1976. Originally incorporated as the Delaware, Lehigh, Schuylkill and Susquehanna Railroad Company.

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LV C430s?

Postby lvrr325 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:09 pm

Bowser is doing a fantasy run of the C430s in Lehigh Valley based on an Alco order proposal to the LV in July of 1968 that LV either chose not to excercise or Alco went out of business unable to fulfill it.

They've chosen to paint these units in tuscan red with one yellow stripe and small roman lettering, which is consistent with all LV repaints from about 1964 through 1970 or 1971.

But no LV unit was factory delivered in that scheme and I don't believe that's what these units would have appeared in. IMHO at the very least they would have had large lettering as the C420s did and the GP38ACs and other later units (and repaints) got. The tuscan scheme was basically leftover PRR paint and re-use of the stenciling design from LV's original paint scheme. Alternately, and very likely, they would have come in the same snowbird scheme as the C628s, the last of which were delivered not long before these units were proposed. And it's even possible they could have come in a new and entirely different scheme of some sort.

Just wondered if anyone else had an opinion? I'm presuming the proposal was just that, and never got far enough to see a painting diagram.
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Re: LV C430s?

Postby BR&P » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:05 am

lvrr325 wrote: And it's even possible they could have come in a new and entirely different scheme of some sort.


Summer of 1968? Might even have been a paisley, tie-dyed look! Far out, man! :wink:

So basically that was a sales pitch of sorts from Alco, saying "Hey, we could build you these, you'll love 'em", probably due to the LV's previous purchase of C-628's?
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Re: LV C430s?

Postby charlie6017 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:09 am

I agree that the "Snowbird Scheme" would have been the likely paint scheme, being that it was
the most-current. Then again with the LV.......you just never know!

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Re: LV C430s?

Postby scottychaos » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:37 am

hmm, interesting question!
at first glance I agreed with lvrr325 that the Tuscan scheme seemed unlikely for factory painted units,
since that scheme was never applied to any factory-painted units..it was only done on "in house" repaints at Sayre.
But this scheme:

Image

Basically didn't exist until 1971.
on new units, or repaints..I think that scheme first appeared with the GP38AC's of 1971, without the white nose stripes..
then the nose stripes appeared in '72 with the GP38-2's, and all the 70's repaints.

Which makes 1968 an interesting "transition era" between the YellowJackets and SnowBirds of the mid-60's,
and the "Bright Red with large Helvetica lettering and white nose stripes" which was standard in the early 70's..
Applied new on the GP38AC's, GP38-2's, U-boats, and repainted other units..

So what was the LV painting everything in during 1968?
everything was Tuscan! ;)
Sayre was doing virtually nothing but Tuscan repaints in 1968 and 1969..

So it seems Bowser did their homework..
Perhaps the fact that the Tuscan scheme was never applied to Factory painted units is irrelevant..
because the answer to: "How likely was it to have been used if new units were ordered in 1968?"
seems to be..pretty likely! since that was the "LV standard" at least for those few short years..

Im curious to see what the C430 models will look like! :)
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Re: LV C430s?

Postby scottychaos » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:03 am

A drawing is posted here:

http://www.bowser-trains.com/new/c430.html

I like it!

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Re: LV C430s?

Postby lvrr325 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:14 pm

Being frugal as the LV was it's much more likely Alco would have been re-using the same stencils and so forth for the C628s. To do the tuscan scheme would have required new stencils and artwork at Alco.

The second batch of C628s went back to Alco from the Monon in late 1967, so C430s would not have come much later; the proposal was dated mid 1968. Being it was Alco's proposal to LV I'm sure they'd calculated for whatever paint the units would get in the price per locomotive.

In the end, since it was just a proposal, it's all speculation, I just feel this scheme, particularly the tiny lettering, is the least likely of all the possibilities that could have occurred. At the very least the units would have turned up with the same lettering as the C420s, or some other much larger billboard lettering.
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Re: LV C430s?

Postby PEIR » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:17 am

I was looking at these units and was wondering with the state the LV was in would they of not opted to stick with the standard trucks over the HI-Ad's?
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Re: LV C430s?

Postby scottychaos » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:35 pm

PEIR wrote:I was looking at these units and was wondering with the state the LV was in would they of not opted to stick with the standard trucks over the HI-Ad's?


All the C430's were built with Hi-Ad trucks except for the two Reading units, which were the first two built.
The RDG C430 trucks came from traded in units.

If these LV C430's had been built, they probably would have been the very last 4-axle Centurys from Schenectady.
The real C430's were built July 1966 to February 1968, and this proposed LV order is said to be
from July 1968..The two Reading units were built in 1966, the first year of production..all the rest were built after them,
and all the rest had Hi-Ad trucks..(only 16 total C430's built)

So the Reading units were the first, (only two RDG C430's, both with "standard" trucks)
Then the rest of the C430's (fourteen more units) all had Hi-ad trucks, built 1967 and 1968.
Then the LV units would have been the very last C430's..

Based on all that, its perhaps possible the LV could have made a choice of trucks..but it seems far more likely they would have had Hi-ad trucks..
(and its also possible the LV wouldnt have had a choice of trucks at all..Hi-Ad might have been "standard" by 1968, and non-negotiable..I dont know though..)

Like the paintscheme, Bowser had to make a judgement call on the trucks..
what would have been "the most likely" paint and trucks if these LV units had actually been built?
They chose Tuscan and Hi-ad as being most likely..I agree on both counts.

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Re: LV C430s?

Postby lvrr325 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:26 pm

By '68 the LV was out of FA's to trade in and likely would have traded if anything Baldwins or any remaining F-units towards them. I don't see them giving up any RS2s at that point, given in 1969 they picked up one used RS3 and made a swap with PC to replace some tired RS2s on the cheap for retired RS3s.

What that means is no AAR-B trucks available to use, unless they "bought" units from parent PRR/PC to trade in. Which I suppose is concievable. But that's the only way the units could have come on the AAR-B trucks.

The C420 paint scheme was chosen by a contest in Sayre. I'm not sure offhand who was responsible for the C430 scheme. EMD came up with the GP38AC scheme which more or less became standard. LV was still playing in 1968, and a chance to play essentially at no additional cost to the railroad? That alone makes it highly unlikely they'd have new units painted in the hand-me-down PRR scheme.

Sometimes I think people pick an opinion just to be contrary and logic, facts, what was actually going on at the time, be damned.
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Re: LV C430s?

Postby scottychaos » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:33 am

lvrr325 wrote: LV was still playing in 1968, and a chance to play essentially at no additional cost to the railroad? That alone makes it highly unlikely they'd have new units painted in the hand-me-down PRR scheme.

Sometimes I think people pick an opinion just to be contrary and logic, facts, what was actually going on at the time, be damned.


I dont understand what you mean..
what do you mean by "play"?

and "what was going on at the time" was: LV was painting everything in Tuscan! ;)
which is what makes the Tuscan scheme for C430's entirely logical and plausible..
"picking the opinion" of Tuscan IS based on logic, facts, and what was actually going on at the time..
(I cant tell if you are arguing for, or against, the option of Tuscan as being plausible! ;) so im just clarifying my opinion.)

there was no other current paintscheme in 1968 except Tuscan.
Sure, Alco could have designed an all-new paintscheme, or used the older snowbird or yellowjacket scheme..
thats certainty possible, but not any more likely than Tuscan..

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Re: LV C430s?

Postby PEIR » Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:46 pm

The release is getting close. Did anyone pre-order one or are you waiting to see one in person?
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Re: LV C430s?

Postby therudycometh » Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:50 pm

lvrr325 wrote:The second batch of C628s went back to Alco from the Monon in late 1967, so C430s would not have come much later; the proposal was dated mid 1968.

This was my thought. The C628s were the only new locomotives ordered by the LV between 1964 and 1971, so they are the only thing to gauge a new locomotive delivery on. Since the 1967-1968 order of C628s was delivered to the LV in fresh Snowbird paint, I can only imagine that the LV was A) happy with that paint scheme, and B) would have continued it on successive Alco orders.
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Re: LV C430s?

Postby scottychaos » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:36 pm

therudycometh wrote:
lvrr325 wrote:The second batch of C628s went back to Alco from the Monon in late 1967, so C430s would not have come much later; the proposal was dated mid 1968.

This was my thought. The C628s were the only new locomotives ordered by the LV between 1964 and 1971, so they are the only thing to gauge a new locomotive delivery on. Since the 1967-1968 order of C628s was delivered to the LV in fresh Snowbird paint, I can only imagine that the LV was A) happy with that paint scheme, and B) would have continued it on successive Alco orders.


maybe..and thats as likely as tuscan..
but..the LV also had a precedent of having *different* paintschemes for its two 1960's Alco models!

Yellowjacket scheme for the C420's.
Snowbird scheme for the C628's.

So it also seems quite plausible that a 3rd Alco model could have been in a 3rd paintscheme! ;)
and since all other LV repaints in '68 were being done in Tuscan, it seems very likely to me
the LV C430's could have been delivered in Tuscan..

We have two very plausible theorys..Tuscan and Snow Bird..
both are probably equally likely..but since it never happened, we will never know..

I still totally support Bowsers choice to go with Tuscan..IMO that is the *most* likely scheme
based on the LV's previous Alco orders (with two different paintschemes on two different Alco models..so why not a third on a third?)
and what everything else was being painted in (Tuscan) in 1968..

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Re: LV C430s?

Postby lvrr325 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:45 pm

For what it's worth, display sample at Springfield does NOT have the tiny roman lettering; after further research, they've changed it to the tall yellow lettering. Artwork on the display piece seems to have been taken right from their red C628s, so it's LV repaint stencil rather than factory Alco, but it looks much much better this way.
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Re: LV C430s?

Postby scottychaos » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:12 pm

Update to the Bowser C430! They now have a photo of an actual pre-production model on their webpage:

http://www.bowser-trains.com/new/c430.html

hmmm..IMO Bowser had it better before, a few years ago, when they had a drawing of the LV C430 on the webpage, but not an actual model..
here is their first rendering of the LV C430, from 2014:

Image

That was much better, because it reflected Tuscan schemes that were actually being used on real LV units in 1968..
But the newest version is with the big Helvetica "billboard" lettering, which first appeared on the GP38AC's in 1971..
and that was designed by EMD..So there is no way Alco would have been using that lettering in 1968.

This is all "fantasy" anyway, so I guess its not terribly important! ;)
but they had a "more accurate what-if scheme" the first time..(if something that never existed can be said to be "accurate" ;) which it cant really..but you get my meaning..)
I wonder why they changed it? IMO they had it absolutely right the first time..

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