Worst abandonments

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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby mtuandrew » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:10 pm

GulfRail: I could see either a reopened MILW from Ellensburg to Lind, WA, or a reopened SP&S from Pasco to Spokane, but not both. Both MILW and SPS have been mothballed in decent condition as far as I know. I don't know who owns the SPS right of way and whether it is continuous, but MILW is state-owned and railbanked.

As much as I want to see trains on the Pacific Extension, I think the SP&S is a better bet for BNSF. It has a fully water-level route from Pasco to Spokane (I think I've read a maximum of 0.5% grade?), which the Milwaukee can't beat - and longer/flatter beats shorter/hillier for today's traffic patterns.

-----

Already shared my thoughts on the CRIP Choctaw and on CASO, so those can stand.
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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby FLRailFan1 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:09 pm

GulfRail wrote:
ExCon90 wrote:As to point 1, as far as I know the Poughkeepsie Bridge was in need of extensive restoration; I believe the maximum authorized speed was 5 mph in one direction and 8 mph in the other (maybe Noel Weaver can confirm or correct). There had to be a reason for that, and extensive rehab and signaling improvements would have been necessary over other parts of the route. I think a Conrail study determined that potential traffic only aggregated one train a day in each direction between Allentown and Cedar Hill, the traffic dispersing at each end among various origins and destinations. Another study commissioned by an independent group (I forget who) reached the same conclusion. I don't know about the relative difference in gradients between the Selkirk and Maybrook routes.

Oh, I understand why Conrail made the decision it did: there was no need for Conrail to keep Selkirk and Maybrook back in 1976, nor did the higher-ups at Conrail know their railroad would be split between CSX and Norfolk Southern some 25 years later. That being said, I'm sure Norfolk Southern wishes it had a more direct route to New England than the PRR-DL&W-D&H-B&M route it currently operates with Pan Am.


If CR had the foresight to keep the Maybrook yard, I bet NS, P&W would be partners by shipping Hartford and Boston traffic through Maybrook, instead of through PAS.

A small line that shouldn't have been abandoned would be the Plainville, CT to Cranston, RI line, along with Manchester,CT to Willimantic,CT line. (Of course, my layout has it with some online businesses...).
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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby GulfRail » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:54 am

FLRailFan1 wrote:If CR had the foresight to keep the Maybrook yard, I bet NS, P&W would be partners by shipping Hartford and Boston traffic through Maybrook, instead of through PAS.

Oh, definitely. You'd probably see non-stop Atlanta-Boston trains traversing a Southern-N&W-Reading-L&HR-NH route via. Maybrook. Regardless of how plausible such a scenario is, it'd certainly be interesting to model! :wink:
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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby fauxcelt » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:08 am

Speaking of the Rock Island's Choctaw Route, seventy-nine miles of it is still being used by a Class III short line railroad called the Little Rock & Western from Little Rock, Arkansas west to Danville, Arkansas for freight only. At the eastern end in Little Rock, the tracks connect with UP. At the western end in Danville, the tracks just come to a dead end. If you drive west from Danville on state highway 10, you can see some signs on the north side of the highway that there used to be a railroad track or tracks running through there.

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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby YamaOfParadise » Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:47 am

GulfRail wrote:Oh, definitely. You'd probably see non-stop Atlanta-Boston trains traversing a Southern-N&W-Reading-L&HR-NH route via. Maybrook.


So basically a good chunk of the old Alphabet Route! :wink: (Though, there's still the issue of how'd you get the trains to Boston even when you got across the Poughkeepsie Bridge; you'd still have to route via the NEC after getting off of the Maybrook+Naugy in Devon; a routing that I'd say even in the Conrail days was far from optimal.)
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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby GulfRail » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:12 am

YamaOfParadise wrote:So basically a good chunk of the old Alphabet Route! :wink:

Exactly! :-D

YamaOfParadise wrote:(Though, there's still the issue of how'd you get the trains to Boston even when you got across the Poughkeepsie Bridge; you'd still have to route via the NEC after getting off of the Maybrook+Naugy in Devon; a routing that I'd say even in the Conrail days was far from optimal.)

To be fair, Norfolk Southern operated a decent amount of freight traffic on the NEC until fairly recently.
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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby clutch » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:47 pm

In Washington the old SP&S BN route land ownership went back to the original land owners. It would be very expensive to put back in. This info from other RR forums.
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Re: Lines that have potential for future use

Postby Jackinbox1 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:14 pm

The B&M Northern does make sense to me. Wasn't it considered the shortest route, if also the most curvy through NH's western mountains?
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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby mtuandrew » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:09 pm

clutch wrote:In Washington the old SP&S BN route land ownership went back to the original land owners. It would be very expensive to put back in. This info from other RR forums.

If any company could afford to repurchase right-of-way easements, it would be BNSF under Beekshire Hathaway ownership. That they haven't seems to indicate that the NP isn't all that bad.
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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby CPF363 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:32 pm

mtuandrew wrote:The Rock Island Choctaw Route, hands-down. It'd be a very valuable route for UP or KCS in particular, to connect the Deep South with the Southwest.

Not to go off topic but but why did the Rock Island bankruptcy court spend a lot to rebuild the Choctaw, Oklahoma and Gulf line only to see it largely abandoned? See "Turning the Corner" below.

http://www.rits.org/www/histories/Turni ... orner.html
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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby mmi16 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:01 pm

When it comes to abandonments, you can only look at them from the viewpoint of the time they happened. Viewing them from 40-50-60 or more years removed fills in with information what was unknown and unknowable at the time the abandonment happened. No one can be expected to maintain a line that has no economic or strategic reason for existence betting on something providing those reasons 40+ years later.
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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:57 pm

GulfRail wrote:
FLRailFan1 wrote:If CR had the foresight to keep the Maybrook yard, I bet NS, P&W would be partners by shipping Hartford and Boston traffic through Maybrook, instead of through PAS.

Oh, definitely. You'd probably see non-stop Atlanta-Boston trains traversing a Southern-N&W-Reading-L&HR-NH route via. Maybrook. Regardless of how plausible such a scenario is, it'd certainly be interesting to model! :wink:

Two points on this captioned exchange from upthread.

First we are presuming that there was no fire during '74, and secondly that Conrail was not going to be "sliced and diced" between NS and CSX.

Conrail was going one way or the other; either it was going to be "Con-Game" and perpetually be at the Feddytrough, or it was going to become a viable railroad property. When its management, helped along by Dereg, made it the latter, I do not believe it was foreseen that the slice and dice would occur.

Related to this topic of sorts, why did the former NYC Water Level, hands down the most efficient routing for Northeast-Midwest traffic, get cut in half and become victim of a "yoursies minesies" game? 24 hour NY-CHI service that Al Pearlman offered would still be there. Anyone who is or has been in this industry knows that if you are going to handle a train on such a schedule, there cannot be interchanges, "via Greenwich OH and the B&O" is fine, and that the dispatch must be under the control of one road.
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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby ExCon90 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:25 pm

The last clause of that last sentence is key. When one Superintendent was responsible for everything from the local freight to the flagship streamliner they managed to make it work.
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Re: Worst abandonments

Postby mmi16 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:39 pm

Gilbert B Norman wrote:
GulfRail wrote:
FLRailFan1 wrote:If CR had the foresight to keep the Maybrook yard, I bet NS, P&W would be partners by shipping Hartford and Boston traffic through Maybrook, instead of through PAS.

Oh, definitely. You'd probably see non-stop Atlanta-Boston trains traversing a Southern-N&W-Reading-L&HR-NH route via. Maybrook. Regardless of how plausible such a scenario is, it'd certainly be interesting to model! :wink:

Two points on this captioned exchange from upthread.

First we are presuming that there was no fire during '74, and secondly that Conrail was not going to be "sliced and diced" between NS and CSX.

Conrail was going one way or the other; either it was going to be "Con-Game" and perpetually be at the Feddytrough, or it was going to become a viable railroad property. When its management, helped along by Dereg, made it the latter, I do not believe it was foreseen that the slice and dice would occur.

Related to this topic of sorts, why did the former NYC Water Level, hands down the most efficient routing for Northeast-Midwest traffic, get cut in half and become victim of a "yoursies minesies" game? 24 hour NY-CHI service that Al Pearlman offered would still be there. Anyone who is or has been in this industry knows that if you are going to handle a train on such a schedule, there cannot be interchanges, "via Greenwich OH and the B&O" is fine, and that the dispatch must be under the control of one road.


The Water Level Route through Greenwich, OH and the B&O IS under control of one road. CSX. The PRR route through, Philadelphia, Enola, Conway, Alliance, Cleveland and Elkhart IS under the control of one road. NS Services are comparable on either route.
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