Wabash lease

Discussion related to the Norfolk & Western, up to 1982. Also includes discussion of the Virginian Railway (1959); Wabash; Nickel Plate; Pittsburgh & West Virginia Railway; Akron, Canton & Youngstown Raiload (all 1964); and the Illinois Terminal (1981).

Wabash lease

Postby TerryC » Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:10 pm

I read in a Model Railroader that the Norfolk Western leased the Wabash for 99 years. Does this mean that in 2063 the Wabash could run again?

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There is a Paralell

Postby 2nd trick op » Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:21 am

Back during the late 19th century, Providence and Worcester was leased to New Haven for a similar 99-year term. When the lease approached maturity, a group of entrepreneurs determined that the line had a better chance for profitability operating independently, and it was allowed to go it alone.

In addition, it might be noted that when Wheeling and Lake Erie was reincarnated during the 1990's, N&W's lease on connecting road Pittsburgh and West Virginia was transferred to the "new" W&LE.

It should be noted, however, that the circumstances which spawned the reborn P&W, such as the opportunity for ownership of a fleet of leased boxcars, were unique to the time and circumstances, so the odds that history will repeat itself in the case of the Wabash are slight.

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Last edited by 2nd trick op on Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby TerryC » Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:49 pm

Thanks 2nd trick op.

keep asking keep learning
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Re: Wabash lease

Postby AmtrakFan » Sun Jan 02, 2005 3:37 pm

TerryC wrote:I read in a Model Railroader that the Norfolk Western leased the Wabash for 99 years. Does this mean that in 2063 the Wabash could run again?

keep asking keep learning
MERRY CHRISTMAS

I would doubt it but it would be nice.

John
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Postby Tadman » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:15 pm

Keep in mind NS ripped up Wabash across the entire northern indiana main. I'm not sure about the Ohio or St. Louis-Detroit lines, but it would be nothing like it was, that's for sure. Not to mention the Chicago terminal has changed so much. That would be one far-fetched idea. Kind of neat to think about though. I think dark blue looks better than black.
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Postby AmtrakFan » Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:40 am

Tadman wrote:Keep in mind NS ripped up Wabash across the entire northern indiana main. I'm not sure about the Ohio or St. Louis-Detroit lines, but it would be nothing like it was, that's for sure. Not to mention the Chicago terminal has changed so much. That would be one far-fetched idea. Kind of neat to think about though. I think dark blue looks better than black.

The St. Louis to DET line is still opened.

John
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Re: There is a Paralell

Postby SPUI » Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:36 pm

2nd trick op wrote:Back during the late 19th century, Providence and Worcester was leased to New Haven for a similar 99-year term. When the lease approached maturity, a group of entrepreneurs determined that the line had a better chance for profitability operating independently, and it was allowed to go it alone.


Actually the lease was made in 1892, but P&W resumed independent operations in 1973. It appears that the P&W wanted to split and either Penn Central didn't want the trackage or the ICC forced the issue.

As for the Wabash, it seems to have merged into the N&W in 1991. So any new Wabash Railroad would have to be formed brand-new as with any other short line.
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WABASH

Postby HEMI_HARVESTER » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:10 pm

I believe that in apx 1998 the Norfolk Southern officailly bought the assets of the wabash/ N&W.

Sometime around that time, pre-conrail my pay check went from N&W to NS

How ever my union contact is still WABASH !!! until he last Wabash man retires..
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Postby rrfoose » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:05 pm

If the PRR "owned" the Wabash, why didn't they assimilate them? Was KC not on the map as an interchange point at this time? How did they decide that N&W would get to take over the lease? Did any other railroads try to get the lease on the Wabash between PRR and N&W?
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Postby Otto Vondrak » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:45 pm

My guess is that the Wabash debt load was too much for PRR to acquire. Probably some financial reason kept the Wabash at arm's length. It would take long proceedings for an actual merger to take place in those days.
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Re:

Postby webnauseam » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:04 pm

rrfoose wrote:If the PRR "owned" the Wabash, why didn't they assimilate them? Was KC not on the map as an interchange point at this time? How did they decide that N&W would get to take over the lease? Did any other railroads try to get the lease on the Wabash between PRR and N&W?


Excellent book on the subject...check your local library


http://www.amazon.com/Follow-Flag-Histo ... 0875803288

In essence, The PRR was going to have to get rid of the Wabby as a condition of it's Penn-Central ambitions. And, N&W was the only qualified suitor at the time.

N&W really only wanted the NKP, but agreed to take the Wabby as a courtesy to make bigger things attainable
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Re: Wabash lease

Postby NE2 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:15 pm

Norfolk Southern's lease of the state-owned North Carolina Railroad expired in the mid-1990s, and after some negotiating it became a trackage rights arrangement, with the state making improvements.

As for the P&W, they broke the lease when the bankrupt Penn Central stopped paying rental.
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Re:

Postby GWoodle » Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:39 pm

Otto Vondrak wrote:My guess is that the Wabash debt load was too much for PRR to acquire. Probably some financial reason kept the Wabash at arm's length. It would take long proceedings for an actual merger to take place in those days.


Something tells me the PRR purchase of Wabash may have been a defensive move when B&O bought the Alton. There may not have been enough traffic from a St Louis/KC gateway to bring it to the B&O or PRR in Chicago. There would be no advantage to having the Wabash deliver traffic to Buffalo. Both roads need to attract a % of western & midwest traffic in Chicago bound for points east.

Something the Wabash purchase would end is the prospect of another Gould empire building another competing route from Chicago to Pittsburgh (via W&LE) & east.
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Re: Wabash lease

Postby Tadman » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:05 pm

It was a condition of the PC merger. PRR controlled N&W and Wabash, which also controlled the Annie. ICC demanded divestiture of WAB and N&W, so PRR decided to "give" WAB to N&W; N&W didn't want the Annie as it was a perpetual money loser so it was shifted to DT&I control, which was also a PRR ward. Then WAB+N&W+NKP happened.
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Re: Wabash lease

Postby Minneapolitan » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:46 pm

Yep, and it's that Pennsy control of both N&W and Wabash that is one of railroading's great tragedies. I don't know with whom N&W should have merged, but Wabash had better options. N&W had that coal money, but that's it. The Wabash line to Buffalo (and this is also true for Nickel Plate) could have saved other great lines like Erie, DL&W, or Lehigh Valley.

It seems like Pennsy's corporate ties screwed everything up back then.
Nickel Plate Road should have merged with ERIE.

Duh.
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