Push-Pull More Dangerous?

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Postby Avro Arrow » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:34 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:Your Sarcasm is noted Avro Arrow, but How many trains or locomotives did you operate so far ?? ????
I got 22 years in rail industry and an other 12 in ships.

oh okay. You are now a railroad expert, CASE CLOSED!

The Metro link accident would most cerainly have resulted in a fire.

This is your opinion, not fact.

second after running over the jeep the lead unit derailed (yes the locomotive would have derailed too).

Can you substantiate or prove this?

somewhere along the line the fuel tank would have been crushed or cracked and the fuel ignited.

Can you substantiate or prove this?

My assertion is that with the added mass of a locomotive being at the front of the train, the likelihood of a derailment in the first place is greatly reduced. Additionally, derailments at grade crossing strikes under "normal" conditions (read locomotive up front) rarely result in derailments, even when large vehicles are struck. In other words, a heavier object can withstand striking cars better than a lighter one, simply because the heavier object (a locomotive) can hold the rail better.
Avro Arrow
 

Postby DutchRailnut » Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:04 am

A train is a linear object, the forces are transmitted in straight line unless a unit derails, just like you assume that only cab cars derail, yet your closed mindis not willing to think about locomotives derailing.
I have been in several crashes with cab cars and have done serious damage to trucks with no damage to cab car other than lights and stairs.
If you outlaw cab cars you can also no longer run buses , EMU, DMU etc
when a train is in emergency each vehicle brakes at same rate. A locomotive does not keep pushing, A locomotive is not like a H.O. type trainset, each vehicle has brakes.

Here are some more expert reactions ???


Councilmember and train expert declare 'push' train method unsafe
By Sylvie Belmond
belmond@t...


Concerned for the safety of Metrolink riders, Moorpark Mayor Pro Tem Clint
Harper and Simi Valley resident Greg Bell are using train models to demonstrate
how the locomotive push method is a dangerous practice.

"I would advise Metrolink riders to not ride in the first car, also known as the
'coffin car,' while the train is in the 'push' mode," said Harper.

Harper expressed his concerns at a city council meeting last month. Metrolink
was invited to send a representative to speak on the recent crash and discuss
train operation procedures.

In a recent letter to the council, Metrolink indicated David Solow, CEO for the
commuter train company, would attend the meeting on March 2 to speak on behalf
of the company.

Meanwhile, Harper and Bell have been working on crash simulations in a lab at
Moorpark College to illustrate the dangers of push trains.

The effort was inspired by the deadly train crash that occurred in Glendale in
January. Eleven people died and about 200 were injured in the accident.

One of the trains involved originated from Moorpark.

The commuter train was powered in the "push" mode when the accident occured.

"The Metrolink crash simulations were very revealing," Harper said. "The
derailments in the 'pull' mode had a much higher chance of survivability than in
the 'push' mode," he said.

Harper will present his findings to the council next Wednesday.

"It's a lot easier to explain it if you demonstrate it," said Bell, a piano
tuner and train afficionado.

The pair set up two cameras to film the model as they were operating trains in
the "push" and "pull" modes and crashing them. They used an HO scale model that
looked exactly like the Metrolink train, Bell said.

"We are currently putting together a CD-ROM with the video of the scale crashes,
data on the technical issues, and a full description of the experimental
procedure and results," said Harper.

During the experiment, when the train is in the "pull" mode, the locomotive and
bi-level passenger cars stayed near the track. "Only in one try out of about 10
did a passenger car even tip over onto its side," he said.

In the "push" mode the passenger cars scattered all over the place, they
jack-knifed or accordioned, Harper illustrated. Usually at least the first two
cars spun and ended up on their side.

The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers & Trainmen has been lobbying against the
"push" mode of train operation for years, based on safety, Harper said.

There are solutions to make the trains safer, he pointed out.

The trains could be turned if a section of "Y" track is installed.

The "Y" track is an alternative to the turntable; it would allow the locomotive
to be placed at the front of the train before it returns. If a "Y" track is not
available, the engine could also pull the train while it goes backwards,
provided the engineer has a video camera system to enable him to see ahead of
the train.

"Objections can be made that a scale collision is not a perfect representation
of a full-scale collision . . . that is certainly true, but the results are
dramatic enough to at least warrant further engineering studies," Harper said.

At the council last month, Councilmember Keith Millhouse, who serves on the
Ventura County Transportation Committee, objected to Harpers comments. He
supported the Metrolink operations and said the accident was an unusual chain of
events, involving three trains in the same location while a vehicle was wedged
into the tracks, causing the collision and the ensuing results.

Harper believes that Millhouse, when faced with evidence, may also become more
critical of Metrolink for putting profits ahead of lives, because, in Harper's
opinion, the "push" mode isn't safe, no matter what.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Postby Avro Arrow » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:01 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:A train is a linear object, the forces are transmitted in straight line unless a unit derails,

Or a curve.

just like you assume that only cab cars derail, yet your closed mindis not willing to think about locomotives derailing.

Totally! Because virtually all freight trains (this would be with a locomotive up front) derail when they hit cars!

Oh by the way, the above sentence contained sarcasm.

I have been in several crashes with cab cars and have done serious damage to trucks with no damage to cab car other than lights and stairs.

Did you hear about the Metrolink derailment in California? It had a cab car leading the consist and it derailed.

If you outlaw cab cars you can also no longer run buses , EMU, DMU etc
when a train is in emergency each vehicle brakes at same rate. A locomotive does not keep pushing, A locomotive is not like a H.O. type trainset, each vehicle has brakes.

Cool even though that has no relevancy to this thread

Here are some more expert reactions ???


Councilmember and train expert declare 'push' train method unsafe
By Sylvie Belmond
belmond@t...


Concerned for the safety of Metrolink riders, Moorpark Mayor Pro Tem Clint
Harper and Simi Valley resident Greg Bell are using train models to demonstrate
how the locomotive push method is a dangerous practice.

"I would advise Metrolink riders to not ride in the first car, also known as the
'coffin car,' while the train is in the 'push' mode," said Harper.

Harper expressed his concerns at a city council meeting last month. Metrolink
was invited to send a representative to speak on the recent crash and discuss
train operation procedures.

In a recent letter to the council, Metrolink indicated David Solow, CEO for the
commuter train company, would attend the meeting on March 2 to speak on behalf
of the company.

Meanwhile, Harper and Bell have been working on crash simulations in a lab at
Moorpark College to illustrate the dangers of push trains.

The effort was inspired by the deadly train crash that occurred in Glendale in
January. Eleven people died and about 200 were injured in the accident.

One of the trains involved originated from Moorpark.

The commuter train was powered in the "push" mode when the accident occured.

"The Metrolink crash simulations were very revealing," Harper said. "The
derailments in the 'pull' mode had a much higher chance of survivability than in
the 'push' mode," he said.

Harper will present his findings to the council next Wednesday.

"It's a lot easier to explain it if you demonstrate it," said Bell, a piano
tuner and train afficionado.

The pair set up two cameras to film the model as they were operating trains in
the "push" and "pull" modes and crashing them. They used an HO scale model that
looked exactly like the Metrolink train, Bell said.

"We are currently putting together a CD-ROM with the video of the scale crashes,
data on the technical issues, and a full description of the experimental
procedure and results," said Harper.

During the experiment, when the train is in the "pull" mode, the locomotive and
bi-level passenger cars stayed near the track. "Only in one try out of about 10
did a passenger car even tip over onto its side," he said.

In the "push" mode the passenger cars scattered all over the place, they
jack-knifed or accordioned, Harper illustrated. Usually at least the first two
cars spun and ended up on their side.

The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers & Trainmen has been lobbying against the
"push" mode of train operation for years, based on safety, Harper said.

There are solutions to make the trains safer, he pointed out.

The trains could be turned if a section of "Y" track is installed.

The "Y" track is an alternative to the turntable; it would allow the locomotive
to be placed at the front of the train before it returns. If a "Y" track is not
available, the engine could also pull the train while it goes backwards,
provided the engineer has a video camera system to enable him to see ahead of
the train.

"Objections can be made that a scale collision is not a perfect representation
of a full-scale collision . . . that is certainly true, but the results are
dramatic enough to at least warrant further engineering studies," Harper said.

At the council last month, Councilmember Keith Millhouse, who serves on the
Ventura County Transportation Committee, objected to Harpers comments. He
supported the Metrolink operations and said the accident was an unusual chain of
events, involving three trains in the same location while a vehicle was wedged
into the tracks, causing the collision and the ensuing results.

Harper believes that Millhouse, when faced with evidence, may also become more
critical of Metrolink for putting profits ahead of lives, because, in Harper's
opinion, the "push" mode isn't safe, no matter what.

Yes, the HO scale reenactment isn't accurate but the same forces exist. Even in emergency braking, much of the kinetic energy of the train is in the locomotive because it has more mass than the cars themselves. This can cause the cars to start folding up and derailing when they hit an object.

This is much less likely to happen when the mass is at the front of the consist.
Avro Arrow
 

Postby DutchRailnut » Sat Mar 05, 2005 6:27 pm

lets see 7000 cabcars worldwide but now their all unsafe ??
everyone harps on how American trains are to heavy but now their to light ??
Come on Avro leave your expertize at the door please.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Postby Tiggerhappy1977 » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:24 am

how safe is push/pull, depends on all the forces being applied in the incident, in the UK there have been several accidents involving push/pull trains, the lead car (DVT, Driving Van Trailer) is not permitted to have passengers in it if the train runs over a certain speed (max speed of the vehicle not the line speed), to me the answer is not to have passengers in the lead car full stop, that then becomes the crush zone, the loco is all incident in the UK have stop powering for one of two reasons, the driver has cut power/dropped dead mans handle/hit emergency brake or the cables that connect the loco to the rest of the train and eventually to the lead car have severed, meaning no signal is sent from the lead car to the loco telling it what to do, in most cases if that signal is interupted the brakes come on.
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Postby Highball116 » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:35 am

Linear force in a collision is sort of theoretical if the power is shoving a consist. If a train shoving through a curve strikes an object, the force will be diverted to the outside of the curve, possibly buckling the train. It's also true that in an emergency application, the locomotives still push because of their mass. This bunches up slack, which adds to the hazard.

Something to consider is that slack is dangerous when it's in, which it nearly always is with a locomotive pushing. With a cab car, there isn't a way to keep the couplers stretched tightly. With longer drawbars in passenger equipment, a sudden run-in can be baaaad.

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Postby SnoozerZ49 » Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:37 pm

I work in a operation with control cars. I must admit, I don't like them, Unless required by the situation I gladly surrender the cab to the engineer. I'll take my chances at the rear of the car. As previously stated the risks not only include a lack of protection for the engineer, the forces of the engine pushing the control car forward, the delays in braking applications and the g-forces at work but also the ability of the engineer to evaculate the cab into a loaded coach where the aisles might be jammed full of people.

I remember the Rockport Branch wreck on the old B&M when a control car road up on the long hood of a GP-9 that was pulling a local freight. It was a tragic day for five railroad families that day. I also remember the horrific grade crossing accidents between gas tankers and Budd RDCs.

I agree with the concept of demotored engines used as control cars.
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Postby Avro Arrow » Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:48 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:lets see 7000 cabcars worldwide but now their all unsafe ??
everyone harps on how American trains are to heavy but now their to light ??
Come on Avro leave your expertize at the door please.


Okay I get it physics is mythical and since nothing bad ever happens in MagicDutchLand I'm wrong. CASE CLOSED!

"expertize" lol
Avro Arrow
 

Postby Irish Chieftain » Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:48 pm

No...it seems that Avro has no understanding of physics. Nobody remembers when the Metra gallery cab car hit a school bus? No such disaster as with Metrolink, where the SUV struck by the train hit a switch—and in such a case, the cab car did not precipitate the accident, and a locomotive leading would have been worse. The weight of the SUV is nowhere near enough to cause the locomotive to start pushing into the cars in front of it.

Looks like the case is open, despite counsel's protestations? Quoting the "expertise" of a railfan, showing weight-unmatched model cars and a pushing locomotive, with no braking apparatus whatsoever?? No braking system to go into emergency mode. The model car/SUV outweighs the model railroad cars by several degrees. No credibility.
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Postby DutchRailnut » Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:49 pm

Here : http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=48626 is a picture of a train with engine brakes and no train brakes, engines on front. did this stay inline ???
Every derailment depends on circomstances leading upto the derailment.
A city or town mayor and a few railbuffs are not gone prove that Cab cars are unsafe with model choo-choo's.
The test center in Pueblo has crashed push pull trains into cement walls and done extensive derailment analysis and simulations, you don't hear them in a panic like California newspapers. Believe me if Pueblo could prove that cab cars are unsafe they would have been banned a long time ago.
The AAR (read freight railroads) are not to keen on having passenger trains at all on their tracks so its not them declaring them faulty but they just can't prove push-pull or cabcars are unsafe.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Postby thebigc » Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:06 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:Here : http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=48626 is a picture of a train with engine brakes and no train brakes, engines on front. did this stay inline ???


What??? Are you saying this move, a train laden with steel ingots, was being run with only straight air?? Are you sure about that?

DutchRailnut wrote:
Every derailment depends on circomstances leading upto the derailment.
A city or town mayor and a few railbuffs are not gone prove that Cab cars are unsafe with model choo-choo's.
The test center in Pueblo has crashed push pull trains into cement walls and done extensive derailment analysis and simulations, you don't hear them in a panic like California newspapers. Believe me if Pueblo could prove that cab cars are unsafe they would have been banned a long time ago.
The AAR (read freight railroads) are not to keen on having passenger trains at all on their tracks so its not them declaring them faulty but they just can't prove push-pull or cabcars are unsafe.


OK DR. Let me ask you this: If you were approaching a road crossing at track speed with a SUV parked on it, which would you rather be running from? The cab car or the loco?

You do have road crossings where you work, don't you? If not, maybe you're not seeing the whole picture.
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Postby DutchRailnut » Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:49 pm

On cab car I can get half way tru car before passengers realize I am running.
On an engine there is no way to run.
Even if you make it into engineroom, the chance of getting doused with scalding oil or cooling water during a crash are higher or slipping on oil on engineroom floor..
Don't forget an American Cab car is heavier than average European Locomotive so yes I feel safe, as far as poassengers nobody is holding a gun to their head to sit in cab car, they do so out of free will.
yes I got 26 road crossings in 23 miles on each trip.
A SUV on crossing is no problem, but in MetroLink crash the SUV was off the crossing on rail towards train. the SUV got stuck between cab car and crossing.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Postby thebigc » Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:45 pm

I meant which operating station you're using to run the train from. Cab car or locomotive. Not which operating station you're physically running away from. At any rate, you've said a mouthful.
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Postby Avro Arrow » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:22 pm

Irish Chieftain wrote:No...it seems that Avro has no understanding of physics. Nobody remembers when the Metra gallery cab car hit a school bus? No such disaster as with Metrolink, where the SUV struck by the train hit a switch—and in such a case, the cab car did not precipitate the accident, and a locomotive leading would have been worse. The weight of the SUV is nowhere near enough to cause the locomotive to start pushing into the cars in front of it.

I believe you!

Especially since 200 tons is comparable to a car perhaps a quarter to half that weight. Your post doesn't make much sense by the way.

DutchRailnut wrote:Here : http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=48626 is a picture of a train with engine brakes and no train brakes, engines on front. did this stay inline ???
Every derailment depends on circomstances leading upto the derailment.

It's funny how you totally contradict everything you say. You show us a picture of a derailment, but then say all derailments depend on different cicumstances--no doubt the one you linked to is different than the MetroLink crash, too.

The test center in Pueblo has crashed push pull trains into cement walls and done extensive derailment analysis and simulations, you don't hear them in a panic like California newspapers. Believe me if Pueblo could prove that cab cars are unsafe they would have been banned a long time ago.
The AAR (read freight railroads) are not to keen on having passenger trains at all on their tracks so its not them declaring them faulty but they just can't prove push-pull or cabcars are unsafe

I want to be able to deem sources reliable and not reliable just like you
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Re: Push-Pull More Dangerous?

Postby s4ny » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:15 pm

This topic will be in the news with the tragic wreck on the Metro North Hudson Line this morning. Having
a heavy and powerful locomotive pushing much lighter passenger cars at what will certainly turn out to be much higher
than posted speeds, resulted in deaths and serious injuries.
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