"Natural"/obvious mergers.

This forum is for discussion of "Fallen Flag" roads not otherwise provided with a specific forum. Fallen Flags are roads that no longer operate, went bankrupt, or were acquired or merged out of existence.

Moderator: Nicolai3985

"Natural"/obvious mergers.

Postby USRailFan » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:20 pm

The Burlington Northern merger could, I guess, be called a "natural" merger - the four railroads (NP, GN, SP&S, CB&Q) had a common heritage, interchanged with each other, had been owned by the same people, and had (to some degree at least) a common management. So it could be said that it'd be natural for them to be merged into one.

Has there been other "natural" mergers like these? B&O + C&O into Chessie System, possibly? Or was Burlington Northern a one-off?
USRailFan
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:22 pm

DEFINE "NATURAL"

Postby henry6 » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:27 am

Define "natural". End to end could possibley be "natural" as could parallel
duplication. But also common boards of directors or managment, similar markets or commodities carriers and lines perpendicular to each other which tie together markets in several directions.

Thus, DRGW-WP was a "natural" end to end merger while being enveloped by UP (with SP) was parallel. The Erie Lackawanna was both.
CN enveloped the IC to reach the Gulf ports perpendicular to its general east west bearings. B&M-MC had a little of both end to end with some of the same managment and money interests which made the marriage easy. And of course B&O-RDG-CNJ should have happened but never did!

But today I don't think "natural" is as easily defined by geography either end to end or side by side but more in the stock portfolio's and market interests of the companies.
henry6
 

Re: DEFINE "NATURAL"

Postby USRailFan » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:45 am

[quote="henry6"]Thus, DRGW-WP was a "natural" end to end merger[quote]

Wasn't Western Pacific originally owned by Rio Grande? I guess that would've made an imagined merger between those two a "natural" merger too. That was the definition I tried to put forth in my initial post - where railroad companies shared a common heritage in that they'd been owned - or even funded - by the same person(s), and had close co-operation when it came to interchanging freight, running passenger trains, and possibly having, fully or partly, a common management. AFAIK all of this was the case with the four initial BN merger partners (and would also be the case with DRGW+WP, I guess)?
USRailFan
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:22 pm

Postby umtrr-author » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:51 pm

I highly recommend the books "Merging Lines" and "Main Lines" for a very well thought out scholarly discussion of this topic. They are pricey but should be available at larger libraries.
User avatar
umtrr-author
 
Posts: 1158
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:36 pm
Location: UMTRR HQ

On WP and Rio Grande

Postby 2nd trick op » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:29 pm

Western Pacific was one of the last tanscontinentals completed; it wasn't owned by Rio Grande, but shared a common purpose, conceived after George Gould had acquired Wabash, Missouri Pacific and Rio Grande in an attempt to develop a true coast-to-coast system around 1910. WP also partnered with Great Northern in developing the "Inside Gateway" via Bieber, Calif, in 1930.

Transcontinental rail freight traffic continued to grow in the years following World War II and the Rio Grande had emerged from bankruptcy in the late 1940s and used its strong position within Colorado and Utah, plus several friendly connections, to develop into a financially healthy property. A couple of court decisions also maintained an SP/D&RGW connection at Ogden and discouraged EsPee from diverting everything to UP and short-hauling the Rio Grande.

But around 1962, SP made a play to acquire WP, a move that was opposed by just about everybody else, particularly Santa Fe. EsPee backed down, and D&RGW continued to prosper through the 1970's, eventually attracting the interest of Denver oil baron Philip Anschutz. This set off a wave of manuverings which eventually allowed Anschutz to leverage his way to contol of much-larger EsPee, which had fallen upon lean times financially. Further maneuvers, too complicated to explain here, eventually gave Union Pacific control of WP, and in the wake of an aborted SP/AT&SF meger, the wiser course of splitting SP to allow continued competition directly eastward from the Bay Area was not followed.
Last edited by 2nd trick op on Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
What a revoltin' development this is! (William Bendix)
User avatar
2nd trick op
 
Posts: 1573
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 7:40 pm
Location: Nescopeck, PA ..... NS Sunbury Line MP 715

Re: On WP and Rio Grande

Postby walt » Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:15 pm

2nd trick op wrote:Western Pacific was one of the last tanscontinentals completed; it wasn't owned by Rio Grande, but shared a common purpose, conceived after George Gould had acquired Wabash, Missouri Pacific and Rio Grande in an attempt to develop a true coast-to-coast system around 1910.


Actually, the attempt by George Gould to put together a transcontinental railroad occured somewhat earlier than 1910. Gould formed the Western Pacific in 1903, one year after he created the still operating ( as SEPTA Route 100) Philadephia & Western Railroad. The P&W never got any further west than Strafford, which is 10 miles from the P&W's Upper Darby, Pa terminus. P&W ultimately built an extension to Norristown to connect with the Lehigh Valley Transit Company's Allentown- Philadelphia Liberty Bell Route. This occurred in 1912, long after the Gould empire had collapsed ( which happened in 1908- Gould had sold the P&W in 1906- before it officially opened for business- and the rest of his railroad empire was in bankruptcy by 1908). Rail service to Strafford was abandoned by the Red Arrow Lines, P&W's last private owners, in 1956 leaving only the still running 69th Street--- Norristown Line.
Please Move to the Rear and Speed Your Ride
( Philadelphia Transportation Company)
walt
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:51 pm
Location: Columbia, MD

Postby JimBoylan » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:14 am

The various "Alphabet Route" Lines would be an end to end merger.
NYNH&H, L&HR, RDG, WM, P&WV, W&LE, NYC&StL (NKP)
JimBoylan
 
Posts: 3103
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:33 pm

Postby scharnhorst » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:58 am

How about the failed buy out of Conrail by the Santa Fe in 1985? or the possable what if if Conrail had been pulled apart between Santa Fe and Norfolk Southern in the late 80's?
scharnhorst
 
Posts: 2999
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:53 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK, Syracuse, NY - Kherson, Ukraine

Postby joshuahouse » Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:09 pm

Just before EL being included into Conrail there was at least some thought of a merger/buyout by ATSF. This would have made for a true transcon of course and given ATSF that great high wide line across NY State.
Check out my photography from around the Finger Lakes. [url] http://joshua-house.artistwebsites.com/ ... +state/all[url/]
joshuahouse
 
Posts: 1059
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:05 pm

Re: "Natural"/obvious mergers.

Postby jebradley » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:27 am

If I'm not mistaken, B&M and MEC were never merged, and remained separate even into the Guilford era. The two roads entered into a 'management agreement' by which MEC was managed by B&M people but there was no legal (i.e., stock) ownership as such. I don't know if Guilford (excuse me, "Pan Am" has since merged them, but I believe Guilford has acted as a holding company.

James E. Bradley
Lehigh Valley Chapter N.R.H.S.
jebradley
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 3:51 pm

Re: "Natural"/obvious mergers.

Postby Lehighton_Man » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:34 am

One natural merger that should've happened IMHO, is the NKP/LV merger in the 1950s. In effect, it would've had one hell of an effect on the North East Railroads. NKP/LV running together would've been direct competition to the NYC, with a New York - Chicago link. Ironically, if one does look at some of the Records, It does show that even NYC wanted the Valley, but didn't have the chance before the dreaded Pennsylvania Rail Road meddled in our affairs... (mind you, I do realise that it was acted upon because the Valley was not very financially successful at the time, turning very marginal profits, if any, and the PRR thought it would be it's savior.) I truthfully think that if the PRR hadn't meddled in the Valley's Affairs, and the NKP/LV happened, That it would have 3 options:
1. NKP/LV would exist into the 21st century as a Regional Class 2, rather than 1.
2. Conrail might've made a move to acquire the line, but this seems too impractical, since they already had the EL, and NYC routes,
3. N&W would've still had its way, and obtained the roads like it did, Wabash, NKP & Wabash.

Kind of wishful thinking if you see it similarly to the way I think. :)
Last edited by Lehighton_Man on Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lehigh Valley
Route of the Black Diamond
User avatar
Lehighton_Man
 
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:38 pm

Re: "Natural"/obvious mergers.

Postby jlaroccoii » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:54 pm

Not to nitpick, but the MONON was merged into the L&N. Which in turn became part of CSX.
If I misundrstood, please forgive me.
User avatar
jlaroccoii
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:21 pm
Location: NW Indiana

Re: "Natural"/obvious mergers.

Postby Lehighton_Man » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:47 am

My bad. I was trying to think of the 3 that N&W "acquried"... NKP was one, WLE was two, and I can't remember the third.
Lehigh Valley
Route of the Black Diamond
User avatar
Lehighton_Man
 
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:38 pm

Re: "Natural"/obvious mergers.

Postby USRailFan » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:06 am

Wasn't Wabash the third one?
USRailFan
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:22 pm

Re: "Natural"/obvious mergers.

Postby jlaroccoii » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:09 pm

Don't feel bad. Before the internet, when I was a teen, I thought the MONON was part of NS as well. Kind of wish it was.
User avatar
jlaroccoii
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:21 pm
Location: NW Indiana

Next

Return to General Discussion: Fallen Flags

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest