FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby george matthews » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:14 am

johnthefireman wrote:Yes, I actually like the aesthetics, because I don't think working locomotives should look too graceful!

The real question about this kind of centre driving place is whether the driver is too far from the track. I suspect they were discontinued because the driver could not see enough of the track ahead. The advantage was probably that fewer control equipment pieces were needed as one driving position was needed instead of two. A few were built in Britain but has anyone seen any for decades?
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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby Benny » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:57 pm

george matthews wrote:The real question about this kind of centre driving place is whether the driver is too far from the track. I suspect they were discontinued because the driver could not see enough of the track ahead. The advantage was probably that fewer control equipment pieces were needed as one driving position was needed instead of two. A few were built in Britain but has anyone seen any for decades?



I don't know very much of English locos, but generally also single cab units have two driving desks, one each direction. It's only my personal opinion but I think that this shape has been chosen to facilitate the reversal at the end of the short journeys that normally were the work of these machines. Being not so long locomotives, I think that noses are not a big problem during the run, and in shunting there is generally an accompanying man.

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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby NorthWest » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:23 pm

The thing that I notice is that while it seems set up for switching, it would be very hard to see anyone on the footboards at the corner of the unit, and hard to see anyone coupling or joining air hoses, which could be a hazard. Neat thing, though.
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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby johnthefireman » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:19 pm

Benny wrote:generally also single cab units have two driving desks, one each direction. It's only my personal opinion but I think that this shape has been chosen to facilitate the reversal at the end of the short journeys that normally were the work of these machines. Being not so long locomotives, I think that noses are not a big problem during the run, and in shunting there is generally an accompanying man.


Yes, I think that is the main purpose of a centre-cab unit. It makes it easy to reverse direction during shunting (or, as you say, at the end of short journey) without the driver having to go backwards and forwards between two end cabs. This saves a lot of time in a shunting operation.

These noses are relatively short (compared, say, to the length of a US main line single cab diesel, or a British Class 20) and the cab windows sit above the nose, so vision should be reasonably good. When shunting, the driver will certainly have his head out of the side window and will be able to see the shunter on the ground who (at least under railway regulations which I have worked) will stand clear of the profile of the loco while there is any movement going on, and will make a clear signal to the driver, which the driver will acknowledge, whenever he goes between the loco and the vehicle which is being coupled and uncoupled. In my experience even with a double cab loco you can't see the crewmember on the ground while s/he is actually between vehicles coupling and uncoupling hoses. Nobody should be between vehicles when any movement is taking place - that's how accidents happen.
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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby Benny » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:24 am

Sorry for lateness. This time two chapters to beg your pardon.

The biggest goal of FIAT railroad division has been, no doubt, the project of ALn 668 railcars. Of these units (and the evolution ALn 663) were produced nearly 2000 pieces and furnished, through forty years and various series, not only to FS but also to many private railroads with derived vehicles sold to other countries too (ALn 668.920 worked some years in USA and then went to Mexico).
In 1978, after eighteen years from the last new stock, FSE bought fifteen motors (Ad 31-45) and seven driving trailers (R 331-337). The railcars, moved by two 147 kw engines through a mechanical gearbox, were identical to the FS ALn 668.1900 series, the only difference was the gearing, that lowered maximum speed (105 km/h instead of 130) and augmented tractive effort because trailers were not used by FS sisters. Also the livery remained the same of FS (probably because FSE was confused about its identity) and, to tentatively uniform stock, older vehicles started to be repainted.
Being the newest stock and having a good acceleration, they were extensively used on the most important trains, especially in the Bari hinterland, and became battlehorses of the railroad. During the years Ad 31-45 received some modifications (e. g. sealing of the front doors) but are still available apart Ad 39 burnt in 2015; instead, in the new millennium, trailers were dumped because of the heavy wearing of engines and clutches in the not well maintained motors (maintenance has been an everlasting problem of FSE, worsened in the last decade).

Ad 45 and 43 sandwiching a trailer have just received the starting order from the Ceglie station master in 1995.
feb2005-ad43e45erim-190595ceglie.jpg


Green light for the dirty Ad 40 leaving Maglie station in 2015. Note the water crane on the right.
IMG_8125.JPG


The two images by S. Paolini courtesy of Photorail, probably the best site for Italian railway photography.

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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby Benny » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:29 am

In the second half of the 80s, with the locomotives fleet badly ageing, FSE was in need of new tractive units. At the same time the firm IMPA/ITIN of Catania developed a diesel locomotive with electric transmission, two two-axles bogies, a power of 1220 kw and a max. speed of 100 km/h (62 mph). The heel network ordered three units (two more were ordered by ACT, the successor of CCFR) that were delivered in 1987/88 and demonstrated to be troublesome, especially in the managing electronics. Classified as DE 122 401-403, they have been stopped various times for modifications. In the same time IMPA/ITIN became bankruptcy (the firm had been set up mainly to collect state and European funds for industrial development in depressed areas, in the best Italian style) so there was no technical support.
From the ashes of previous builder (probably with the help of a typical Italian organization that begins with M and finishes with A) born the new firm DPA, to which the disastrous FSE management ordered, in 2006, five more locomotives in spite of the problems of the previous ones.
The new series, DE 122 410-414, received a different prime mover (Caterpillar instead of Breda) and other slight modifications and has been mainly dedicated to push-pull services with double decker stock because of disappearing of freight traffic.
But also this second series is problematic and the scarce know-how of the FSE workshop not helps.
The actual situation sees the three first series locos dumped out of use because of spare parts fault (the ACT units too are standing for the same reason) and the five others working mainly between Bari and Putignano with commuters services, with frequent passages in the workshop to tentatively solve the continuous troubles (a first series machine is being cannibalized to furnish some not to be found parts).
In the end, another sad page of the corruption between bad management, politics and business that is the disgrace of Italian railways.

My friend S. Paolini, during a visit to Bari depot in 2008, immortalized second series DE 122 413 and 410, then new, and first series DE 122 401, already not in perfect condition, waiting for attention.
bb122413e410e40x-260508dlbari.jpg

Two months ago, during another tour on FSE, again Mr. Paolini photographed DE 122 412 at the head of three double decker coaches entering Triggiano station.
IMG_8798.JPG


The two images courtesy of Photorail.

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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby NorthWest » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:03 am

Thanks, Benny. We appreciate your writing when you have the time.
Repeatedly buying things that don't work. Wow.

The equivalent Fiat railcar that operated on the Rock Island (CRIP) was dubbed the Ravioli Rocket as it joined the Rocket fleet and was fitted with a grated cow catcher and grates over the windows.
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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby Benny » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:53 pm

NorthWest wrote:
The equivalent Fiat railcar that operated on the Rock Island (CRIP) was dubbed the Ravioli Rocket as it joined the Rocket fleet and was fitted with a grated cow catcher and grates over the windows.


Something incredible the images of a "micetta" (little female cat, because of the ronronning engines) in the typical USA landscape.
When achieved with FSE, I'm thinking in something about the Italian way of railcars.

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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby ExCon90 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:35 pm

Benny, some questions about the departure signals at Treggiano in that bottom photo:
I'm assuming that the square-background signal head on the mast at right governs a departure move on the track occupied by the train, and the round one on the right governs the vacant track; what is the significance of a square background on one signal and the more usual round one on the other? What is the significance of the diagonal row of white lights above the square signal? It looks as though it might be a junction indicator, but there don't seem to be any diverging routes--in fact the white triangle on the signal at far left indicates there are no diverging routes from that point.
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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby Benny » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:58 pm

ExCon90 wrote:Benny, some questions about the departure signals at Treggiano in that bottom photo:
I'm assuming that the square-background signal head on the mast at right governs a departure move on the track occupied by the train, and the round one on the right governs the vacant track; what is the significance of a square background on one signal and the more usual round one on the other? What is the significance of the diagonal row of white lights above the square signal? It looks as though it might be a junction indicator, but there don't seem to be any diverging routes--in fact the white triangle on the signal at far left indicates there are no diverging routes from that point.



Well, signalling is not my best but I will try to answer you. Hope I can explain myself because I don't know the translation of some terms.
That station is governed by an ACEI, Apparato Centrale Elettrico ad Itinerari or Electric Central Itineraries Apparatus; this kind of equipment gives a running direction to each track, as in double track lines. When a train runs on a track on the opposite direction to the normal one (legal) is told as running on the illegal track. The rounded background of the signal, named vela (sail), is the normal one; instead the squared vela is used on signals that order the illegal track.
Frankly I don't know the real significance of the white lights but, being only on top of the squared vela, surely is connected with the illegal running. I'm not so sure that FS uses that signal; sometimes private railroads have differences in signalling.
The white triangles mean that, leaving the station from a non direct route track, a train has not to pass 30 km/h (if there isn't a number) or the speed showed, until it pass the point to the correct route.

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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby ExCon90 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:42 pm

Thanks very much for the information, Benny. I didn't think about "wrong-line" running, as it's informally called in the U. S.
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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby johnthefireman » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:04 pm

ExCon90 wrote: "wrong-line" running, as it's informally called in the U. S.


And the same in a lot of other English speaking countries, I think.
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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby Benny » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:03 pm

Thanks, good to know.

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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby ExCon90 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:52 pm

Yes, take careful note of that--it must be one of the few instances when the U. S. and the U. K. use the same term concerning railroads.
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Re: FERROVIE DEL SUD EST

Postby Benny » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:09 pm

At the beginning of 90s there was still a good amount of freight on FSE network, especially in the harvest period, but the Reggiane locos were ageing and the DE 122s were not very reliable, so were hired in six FS D 343 locos. After few years three units were bought (D 343.1015, 1027 and 1039 and reclassified as DE 167-169; instead the others were restituted to FS. These locomotives have been illustrated in the Italian diesel topic to which you can go for more information.
For some years they helped with passenger and freight services but in the 2000s engine and trucks problems worsened (the 1000 series was the first to be alienated by FS really because of the Fiat engine problems), not helped by the notorious scarce competence of the Bari workshop.
DE 167 has been scrapped some months ago, 169 is waiting a very unlikely repair and 168 is more or less available but there is no more freight traffic.

DE 168 waiting a new service at Bari depot in 2015.
IMG_8008.JPG

Photo by S. Paolini courtesy of Photorail.

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