Steam in the Philippines

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Steam in the Philippines

Postby philipmartin » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:27 pm

Last edited by philipmartin on Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Steam in the Philippines

Postby george matthews » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:28 pm

philipmartin wrote:Not your average bullet train.

http://youtu.be/L4Ouh79lno4

Something more modern.

http://youtu.be/FaoR75VvXdk

Far more interesting and important are the plans for new modern lines - non-polluting electric.

The age of steam passed long ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSkVdcT0U5o

Note: Standard gauge, modern vehicles.
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Re: Steam in the Philippines

Postby johnthefireman » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:58 am

george matthews wrote:Far more interesting and important are the plans for new modern lines - non-polluting electric.


Important, perhaps, but surely "interesting" is subjective? I find myself quite interested in historical industrial architecture, for example, and Lancaster bombers. I like to see examples of Victorian cotton mills and World War II aircraft in action, but I'm not suggesting that they should be brought back into daily usage. Our heritage, ie how we got to where we are now, is both important and interesting.

Incidentally, the "non-polluting electric" depends to some extent on how the electricity is generated. Good ol' Wikipedia informs me that 42.8% of the Philippines' electricity is generated by the dreaded coal and a further 31.6% by other fossil fuels. Only about 25% is generated by non-poluuting means. So, while electricity is clearly less polluting and more efficient than steam or diesel at the point of use, calling it "non-polluting" needs nuancing.
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Re: Steam in the Philippines

Postby george matthews » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:38 am

I think the locomotives powered by sugar stems are very interesting. They are using locally sourced energy that does not add to the CO2 in the atmosphere. It would be useful to develop that technology further. However, it looks as though, on the contrary, it will expire when the locos finally wear out. It's not the steam I hate but the fuel. Coal burning has had very damaging consequences to us all.
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Re: Steam in the Philippines

Postby johnthefireman » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:09 am

george matthews wrote:I think the locomotives powered by sugar stems are very interesting. They are using locally sourced energy that does not add to the CO2 to the atmosphere. It would be useful to develop that technology further... It's not the steam I hate but the fuel..


For me the biggest problem with steam motive power is its thermal inefficiency.

It would have to be a very well designed and built steam locomotive to get more than 7 or 8% efficiency. Very little of the energy prouced from combustion is turned into mechanical force, most of it goes up the stack.


Suffice it to say that 8-10% for steam is probably realistic... Diesel, on the other hand, would muster 20% on a bad day... So even in worse case scenarios, you're looking at double the output per BTU for diesel.


Both the above quotes from Trains.

In terms of a best case scenario for steam, David Wardale (probably the greatest living steam engineer) has calculated that his 5AT design would have thermal efficiency of 14% (The 5AT Group - Steaming Ahead with Advanced Technology).

Incidentally a mate of mine here in Nairobi has a restored portable agricultural steam engine which we run on bamboo, which burns very hot and bright.
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Re: Steam in the Philippines

Postby philipmartin » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:08 am

"Victorian cotton mills." When I mentioned steam as having a lot to do with our present standard of living, I was thinking of steam in all its applications; cotton mills and steam ships for instance. I appreciate Manchester being called "Cottonopolis." One of my favorite films is "Hobson's Choice," set in 19th Century Salford, across the river from Manchester. http://youtu.be/OYz8-UYyot0
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Re: Steam in the Philippines

Postby george matthews » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:18 am

philipmartin wrote:"Victorian cotton mills." When I mentioned steam as having a lot to do with our present standard of living, I was thinking of steam in all its applications; cotton mills and steam ships for instance. I appreciated Manchester being called "cottonopolis." One of my favorite films is "Hobson's Choice," set in Salford.

The trouble with steam in general is that it is made by burning coal - usually. That is extremely harmful to us all. The Philippines steam, produced by burning sugar cane residue, is not harmful and could be expanded, though probably only on sugar cane farms.

All forms of energy that merely recycle the carbon in the biosphere do no harm. It can be argued that the accumulation of coal and oil was a process that kept the world's climate under control. To control the climate it was necessary to store the carbon harmlessly out of the atmosphere. To let it back into the atmosphere since the burning of coal began has been very damaging. See James Lovelock for more on this theory.
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Re: Steam in the Philippines

Postby george matthews » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:36 pm

philipmartin wrote:"Victorian cotton mills." When I mentioned steam as having a lot to do with our present standard of living, I was thinking of steam in all its applications; cotton mills and steam ships for instance. I appreciated Manchester being called "cottonopolis." One of my favorite films is "Hobson's Choice," set in Salford.

The trouble with steam in general is that it is made by burning coal - usually. That is extremely harmful to us all. The Philippines steam, produced by burning sugar cane residue, is not harmful and could be expanded, though probably only on sugar cane farms.

All forms of energy that merely recycle the carbon in the biosphere do no harm. It can be argued that the accumulation of coal and oil was a process that kept the world's climate under control. To control the climate it was necessary to store the carbon harmlessly out of the atmosphere. To let it back into the atmosphere since the burning of coal began has been very damaging. We have to compensate for this error and repair the results of the 18th century. See James Lovelock for more on this theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Ouh79lno4&t=79s
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