Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Discussion about railroad topics everywhere outside of North America.

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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby philipmartin » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:57 am

johnthefireman wrote:it's strange how the infernal combustion engine circumvented the best laid plans of mice and men and ousted electrification to become the mainstay of modern main line traction in so many countries.

The infernal engine in my Honda gets me to and from work every; (I love my Honda.)
I expect that companies find it cheaper to by diesels than to electrify.

I've seen two videos of the SAR OREX line frequently using a "motor" (electric locomotive) and two diesels coupled together. The old Milwaukee Road in the US did the same thing in the Pacific Northwest..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC5fEYuazoc

1) A builder's photo of K1, the first Garratt locomotive

Beyer Peacock works photograph of K1, the world's very first Garrat steam locomotive, built for the North East Dundas Tramway in Tasmania. This engine is now preserved at the Welsh Highland Railway.

2) From The Ultimate Steam Page - TrainWeb.org
David Wardale
updated 6 December 2009
South African Railways Class 26 No. 3450 "L. D. Porta"
photo copyright 2008 Martyn Hearson, used with permission
Wardale started with an SAR Class 25NC 4-8-4 locomotive, no. 3450. The 25NC's (and their condensing brothers, the 25C's) were generally considered the most modern steam locomotives operating in South Africa, and on par with the most modern steam locomotives ever built. They were equipped with large boilers, cast bed engine frames, roller bearings on all axles and rods, and extensive mechanical lubrication. The 25NC's were basically modern U.S. 4-8-4's scaled down from 4 foot 8-1/2 inch gauge to the South African 3 foot 6 inch gauge. Their only deficiencies compared to U.S. steam were relatively low boiler pressure (225 PSIG) and the lack of a feedwater heater. By improving what was already considered to be an advanced steam design, Wardale hoped to prove that there was a great deal of untapped potential in even the most modern steamer.

Doing most of the design work himself, with some minor assistance from a couple of other engineers, Wardale designed more-extensive improvements for this engine. The Red Devil was equipped with the GPCS, improved piston valves, enlarged superheater and steam chests, double Lempor exhaust, a feedwater heater, and other improvements. While the improvements sound extensive, they were greatly limited by the existing structure of the locomotive and the time and money allocated. Boiler pressure could not be raised, only minor changes to the steam chests could be accomodated, and parts had to be adapted from other existing locomotives (such as the superheater header from a GMAM Garratt).
Once again, after a trying period of fine-tuning, the Red Devil began to show hints of the true performance potential of steam. In service, the 3450 showed over a 38% reduction in fuel costs per ton-mile compared to the standard 25NC's. Sustained drawbar horsepower readings of over 4000 HP were attained in testing (significantly more than developed by the MUCH larger C & O 614 while burning much better coal in later testing), thought to be the world record for a narrow gauge steam locomotive. Roger Waller (later of the Swiss Locomotive Works) came to South Africa about this time and assisted with testing of the locomotive.

3) NGG16 Beyer Garratt - Between 1937 and 1968 the South African Railways placed thirty-four Class NG G16 Garratt articulated steam locomotives with a 2-6-2+2-6-2 wheel arrangement in service on the Avontuur Railway and on the Natal narrow gauge lines." Not the world'd largest Garratt; but it's got a swing seat for the driver.
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby johnthefireman » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:39 am

Red Devil was an impressive machine. I have fired to Carel Vos, one of the old drivers who drove her during the tests. Wardale tells a tale of her going up Rayton Bank outside Pretoria. Now Rayton Bank is a long and steep grade. I have fired up it often on various locomotives and we're usually at walking pace by the time we get to the summit. It's not unusual to have to stop halfway to raise steam.

One day no load was available for the outward trip to Witbank. On the 140m climb from Panpoort to Rayton I asked [driver] Vos to open up a bit and we took the grade (maximum 18%) at about 110 km h-1, only to be stopped by a red signal at Rayton station. Vos used the telephone by the signal to speak with the CTC operator and it transpired that we had zoomed past the axle counter of a hot box detector so fast that the counter had registered zero axles, and the Control wanted to know were we a ghost train or something?


From "The Red Devil and other tales from the age of steam", David Wardale, p 207
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby george matthews » Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:08 am

The former regime in South Africa had its reasons for hanging on to steam and discouraging diesel. These had nothing at all to do with any merits steam might have (none at all in my opinion). Their reasons were entirely political. For one thing, as a near slave regime, they had cheap labour. But the main reason was their very real and justified fear that supplies of oil might be cut off. As it happened they managed to keep a supply but their fears were justified. I think steam is now at last being withdrawn as the external threat is no longer there. Although they had no native oil they had plenty of coal.

When I travelled in SA I used a number of trains. I remember a number of electric trains and the times when steam was added where the wires ended. That was a time to close the windows to prevent the dirt coming in.
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby philipmartin » Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:23 am

johnthefireman wrote:Red Devil was an impressive machine. I have fired to Carel Vos,
From "The Red Devil and other tales from the age of steam", David Wardale, p 207[/quote]
What a good post! So they have hot box detectors in SA too.
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby philipmartin » Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:38 am

george matthews wrote:When I travelled in SA I used a number of trains. I remember a number of electric trains and the times when steam was added where the wires ended. That was a time to close the windows to prevent the dirt coming in.

I remember that too. We call it a "one seat ride." The trains out of Penn station New York, being electric, had to cut off the motor, and hook on a steam or diesel engine at the end of electrified territory. They did away with that when the states, New York and New Jersey took over commuter operations, so people had to change trains. Recently, Amtrak, the Long Island RR, and NJ Transit have started using dual power locomotives out of Penn Station to restore the one seat ride, (Amtrak for its service up the Hudson River which line isn't electrified most of the way.)

1) Here's a DD1 with its clothes off. They still used them on the wire train in Penn Station, New York when I started working towers there in 1957. Those side rods used to clank like a steam engine's drifting around, much to my pleasure.

2) PRR DD1 semi permanently coupled, 600 V. DC, third rail motor, used when Penn Station opened in 1910. They pulled trains both to Manhattan Transfer near Newark, NJ and to Jamaica, Queens, Long island.

3) NJ Transit's new ALP45DP, (with an ALP46 strait electric behind it,) in Newark, NJ. They have a pantograph for AC operation, and two Caterpillars for diesel operation. They are assembled by Bombardier at its Kassel, Germany plant and share some design features with Bombardier's TRAXX locomotives, common in Europe.
Railpictures.net
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby johnthefireman » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:26 pm

george matthews wrote:I think steam is now at last being withdrawn...


I'm not sure why you say "steam is now at last being withdrawn". Main line steam was withdrawn by the late 1980s, with a couple of hangovers into the early '90s such as the Blue Train shunt. Industrial steam then survived a few years longer, particularly in collieries, while they made use of cheap leftover steam locomotives and basically ran them into the ground, but with the exception of one paper mill near Durban, industrial steam in South Africa finished many years ago. The only steam you see in South Africa now is heritage steam, as in the USA, UK and quite a few other countries.
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby ExCon90 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:40 pm

The Great Northern, Virginian, and Boston & Maine all had stretches of electrification for various distances (the B&M only through Hoosac Tunnel through the Berkshires in the steam era), and all were discontinued when diesels came in. One commuter authority switching from electric to diesel is MARC, which has been using diesels under wire on Amtrak between Washington and Baltimore (and on to Perryville?), reportedly because of Amtrak's charges for use of its power.
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby David Benton » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:03 pm

ExCon90 wrote:The Great Northern, Virginian, and Boston & Maine all had stretches of electrification for various distances (the B&M only through Hoosac Tunnel through the Berkshires in the steam era), and all were discontinued when diesels came in. One commuter authority switching from electric to diesel is MARC, which has been using diesels under wire on Amtrak between Washington and Baltimore (and on to Perryville?), reportedly because of Amtrak's charges for use of its power.

Thank you ExCon90, that was the commuter line I was referring to in my earlier post. I hope it is just a bargaining ploy on MARCs part.

looks like I'll need to split this topic into "Salzburg" and diesel vs elctric , or European vs USA railroading at some stage . Keep posting here for now.
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby johnthefireman » Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:32 pm

David Benton wrote:looks like I'll need to split this topic


We've had a few topics recently which have drifted wildly off-topic. I'm not complaining as I've found them extremely interesting and enjoyable, but I sympathise with the moderators!
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:59 am

Meanwhile, "back in the States"

Yesterday, rode a Meridian Salzburg to Munich East. These are MU sets not exactly long in the comfort department (First Class over Second; a few more inches of pitch and a somewhat softer seat. Otherwise 2-2 throughout). But seated next to me across the table was a DB manager, who was willing to talk and in perfect English. He explained to me that how the tracks are owned by the government, but that concerns such as Meridian are private. I said to him that Amtrak is the exact opposite; a government agency operating to a large part over privately owned tracks.

I'm sure there are politics to the whole arrangement, as we certainly know there are to ours, that neither of us were about to discuss.

This gentleman got off at Munich East, and worked the slot machine for me to get my S-Bahn ticket to the airport.

The tab for Business Class on United KORD-EDDM-KORD (I paid for it) was worth it, a foray through "the back of the bus" showed me that I don't think I could have survived.

All told, this was the best overseas trip I have had.
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby philipmartin » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:48 am

I'm glad that you had such a good trip. When I was in Germany forty five years ago, my first half hour there I felt like a fish out of water; then I discovered that everybody spoke English. Things may be different now. It was DBB, Deutsche Bundesbahn, and on the railway out of Berlin, the attendants wore little hammer-and-sickles in their lapels.

Meridian photos.

http://www.br.de/nachrichten/oberbayern ... b-100.html
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby george matthews » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:51 pm

philipmartin wrote:I'm glad that you had such a good trip. When I was in Germany forty five years ago, my first half hour there I felt like a fish out of water; then I discovered that everybody spoke English. Things may be different now. It was DBB, Deutsche Bundesbahn, and on the railway out of Berlin, the attendants wore little hammer-and-sickles in their lapels.

In East Germany their company was called Deutsche Reichsbahn, the name inherited from the pre-war company. In West Germany - Bundesrepublik - their company was called Bundesbahn, the Federal Railway. The two companies were combined after reunification. Possibly the "attendants" you saw got off at the Border. I never travelled in East Germany and only visited Berlin after reunification. The nearest I got was in Luebeck where the ferry from Sweden travelled up the river next to the fence.
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby george matthews » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:01 pm

philipmartin wrote:
george matthews wrote:When I travelled in SA I used a number of trains. I remember a number of electric trains and the times when steam was added where the wires ended. That was a time to close the windows to prevent the dirt coming in.



By SA I meant South Africa/Suid Afrika..
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby philipmartin » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:08 pm

ExCon90 wrote:The Great Northern, Virginian, and Boston & Maine all had stretches of electrification for various distances

Another substantial electrification was that of the New Haven RR between New Haven, CT and New York City, 80 miles. Amtrak has extended that electrification to Boston; so the Northeast Corridor is electrified between Boston and Washington.
Classic Trains winter 2010 has an article about the New Haven's EY-2 steeple cab electric switchers.

1) Virginian class EL-3A trying to be a passenger train. 11 kV, 25 Hz AC- maybe that tickled them.

2) EY2 steeple cab switch engine. 11 kV, 25 Hz AC.

3) EY2c of the New Haven subsidiary New York, Westchester & Boston Ry., its only locomotive. Built by Baldwin-Westinghouse in August 1911; the caption says "Philadelphia" so it might be in Baldwin's plant.
from Don's Rail Photos
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Re: Salzburg; "Rooms With A View"

Postby dowlingm » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:47 pm

In Europe they don't do doublestacking so their freight railroads don't have to worry about clearance issues or (for the most part) well/pocket wagons.

In the US movement of freight using catenary power delivery would only work where there is sufficient low-height traffic to be pulled such as on the Black Mesa and Lake Powell coal to powerstation run.
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