Wyman Bridge location?

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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby pumpers » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:36 pm

One more piece of speculation. I've been studying the old TVC map posted above. Let's assume that in 1882, Brown SH Rd did not yet exist. Let's also assume that the 3 diagonal lines to State Rd are property boundaries (and that on the west side of State rd there was a road (indicated in the map) along the top boundary which no longer exists -- no so unusual. If you look at the relative positions of the boundaries and the distancees between them in a modern aerial photo, you see 3 parallel tree lines, which I've labelled A, B, and C. http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=42.50937,-78.39382&z=16&t=S&marker0=42.51238%2C-78.39741%2C3.2%20km%20SE%20of%20Arcade%20NY&marker1=42.51523%2C-78.40011%2C2.8%20km%20SE%20of%20Arcade%20NY&marker2=42.50844%2C-78.39301%2C3.8%20km%20SE%20of%20Arcade%20NY
A is the northern boundary of Alonzo Wyman EDIT -- see comment at end of post
B. is the southern boundary of A.W. (northern edge of Wellington(?) B___(?).
C. is the southern boundary of W.B.

If this is right and they built as on the TVC map posted earlier (the draftsman was rather careful after all), the ROW did not cross 98 along the tree line posted earlier in Bigham's pictures, which is the property boundary A in my map (If you go to street view in maps.google.com you can convince yourself this is that point). Rather, the ROW would have crossed about 700 feet south of there, in the middle of what is now a field, slightly closer to B than A, in an east/west direction. I'm not a local and don't know any of the hard work everyone locally has done over the years in tracing this all out, and could be way off base, of course.

That would mean the bridge over Clear Creek was fairly close to the southern edge of AW's property, perhaps 150 ft north of it. So then I went looking on the 1963 historicaerials.com map, and there sure is something that looks like a set of abutments, or at least one of them clearly anyway, at an angle to the creek -- sort of like in the photo above -- right there! Meaning at that point the creek was in the same place it was in 1902. I dont know how to post links to historicalaerials zoomed in on a specific spot -- but if you zoom out and get orieinted to the southern edge of AW's property from the tree line (my mark B above), go east to the creek, and zoom it and go a bit north, there it is. If you were to hunt for them, they would be perhaps 700 feet further south, than if the ROW crossed 98 up at point A on the map.

Am I way off base? The abutmennt(s) might not even be on the creek itself anymore, due to it wandering around since 1963. Maybe someone here who is good with maps (Russ??) can use the historicaerial map somehow and post the exact latitude/longitude of what looks like an abutment, so someone with GPS can go hunting...
JS
EDIT: when I checked the map link after I posted, it somehow reversed points A and B. THe northernmost point should be A and the middle one B, with C on the south.
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby erie2937 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:10 am

Only one of the abutments for the B&S bridge over Clear Creek immediately south/east of Sandusky is still standing. This is the south or east abutment. The north or west abutment was removed several years ago when Route 98 was rebuilt. The B&S crossed both 98 and the creek at an angle. The B&S r-o-w is easy to spot right there in Sandusky but maybe not so easy from a satellite or an airplane. The B&S crossed 98 again maybe a mile south of the Clear Creek/98 bridge about where the Gernatt gravel pit is now. Then it ran on the south/west side of 98 for a while. The B&S crossed galen Hill Road at grade level. That grade is very visible from the highway. Hugh T. Guillaume
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby pumpers » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:19 pm

HTG, following your lead, there is another abutment you can easily see on streetview on maps.google.com, just south of where you were describing, just west of 98 about 250 feet north of the intersection of 98 with Phillippi Rd and Moore Rd.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=sandusky,+ny&hl=en&ll=42.480552,-78.347304&spn=0.001246,0.002575&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=43.393645,84.375&t=h&hnear=Sandusky,+Freedom,+Cattaraugus,+New+York&z=19&layer=c&cbll=42.480737,-78.34737&panoid=xYTWCXfoFRYnK9-LPgxa6Q&cbp=12,257.28,,0,10.13
On streetview you can also see the abutment over 98 that you mentioned. JS
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby thebigham » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:51 pm

^That's the B&S abutment outside of Freedom on Rt. 98.
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby thebigham » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:54 pm

pumpers, good work!

I did too notice that southern row.

I'm not at a good computer right now but I will look tomorrow at the aerial photos.
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby thebigham » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:37 am

pumpers wrote:One piece of evidence probably too good to be true -- http://historicaerials.com has a 1963 map which covers Arcade to Sandusky. If you look just east of Clear Creek just north of Eagle St. in Sandusky, there is a little creek running to the east. There is a pair of abutments clear as day there over that creek, and some trace of a path south of them. - TV&C perhaps? Of course they could have been for a bridge for a farmer to get to a field, and to be honest they look too big for a narrow guage RR or for a farmer's bridge. Who knows..

If you go south from the abutments across Eagle ST, there is a line of trees (former ROW?) which then goes down to join the B&S ROW just after it crosses, coming from Arcade, to the east of of Rte 98. Hmmm.

Comparing the 1963 aerial photo to modern ones, it is clear that Clear Creek north of Sandusky has wandered around. Perhaps exactly why the B&S north of Sandusky chose slightly higher ground and farther from the creek. JS


Yes, I see those abutments over the creek just north of Eagle St. Another place to explore...

And where we think the Wyman Bridge is, on the 1963 aerial map, it looks like an abutment was still there in 1963.
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby thebigham » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:51 am

And here's the B&S abutment in Sandusky:

http://g.co/maps/yd9sh
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby erie2937 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:00 pm

The B&S r-o-w really is easy to follow but only if you do it before the trees and bushes leaf out which means do it right about now. Down south of the scout camp where the road to Rushford goes over the BR&P/B&O there is yet another railroad grade that runs along the east side of the creek. The B&S and the BR&P were on the west side of the creek. Last year we hiked that r-o-w for a considerable distance back up toward Freedom. We quit when the going became really tough. We reached the point where the r-o-w was heading across the creek in the general direction of the scout camp. This r-o-w is covered by trees so it probably cannot be seen by a satellite except when there no leaves. H.T. Guillaume
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby BSOR Patarak » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:24 am

I looked back at the paper clippings of the wreck and came across the following:

10/10/1902 Wyoming County Leader
The accident occurred on the switch which runs from Arcade Village to the gravel pit above Sandusky. The train was coming from the pit with seventeen loaded cars about 9:30 a.m., and was running about 4 MPH when the accident occurred. When just south of the bridge which crosses Clear Creek on the Wyman Farm, Engineer Colby noticed a peculiar rumbling noise and whistled for brakes. He says it seems as though the tender jumped the track and shoved the ties out of place. The engine went on the bridge, which seemed to sink right down beneath the weight of the engine. The bridge was an exceptionally strong one, being constructed of five spans of 20 inch girders, and the girders must have been pushed from the abutments or something of similar nature happened."


Reading this makes me think that they were running tender first north back towards Arcade with the 17 cars in tow. There is probably a good chance that there was no run around type siding at the south end, so this type of operation makes sense. If that is indeed the case, the tender may have derailed on the approach to the bridge and shoved all of the ties on the structure ahead of itself, thus causing the locomotive to fall in when it crossed over the bridge. I've also read a state track inspector's report on other BA&A bridges and they state that many are missing the stringers between ties that are supposed to hold them in place on a bridge in the event that something like this occurs. Modern bridges have such stringers attached parallel to the rail at the outside ends of the ties to prevent this creeping problem in a derailment.

If this is the case in this accident, then perhaps the photo I posted is actually looking north from the south abutment. In the distance are some small trees and another locomotive. That could be the line of route 98 and the tracks would have crossed there and curved to the right towards Arcade just past the other locomotive. That second locomotive could be the rescue party from Arcade. Then the end of the bridge that remains intact could easily be on the Wyman property.

Another issue I came up with on the TV&C's "corrected" filing that I posted above is the angle of the Brown School House Road to Route 98. It is not correct to what is there today. Also, when I looked at the first filing, the angle was more correct to what is existing today. Either an error was made in the 2nd filing, or it is showing a property line or something other than the road.

I can also see the other structures in the creek from the 1963 Historical Aerials that have been mentioned above. Hmm....

Just a few other thoughts to add some confusion to it! Now would be the best time to get out there and try to locate it, as once the leaves grow, it would be tough to see outside of the creek bank.
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby thebigham » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:39 pm

^Great observations about the photo, Pat. It must be the south/"Sandusky side" of the bridge.

Any chance you could comment on the BA&A tracks through Sandusky for us?
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby thebigham » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:42 pm

erie2937 wrote:The B&S r-o-w really is easy to follow but only if you do it before the trees and bushes leaf out which means do it right about now. Down south of the scout camp where the road to Rushford goes over the BR&P/B&O there is yet another railroad grade that runs along the east side of the creek. The B&S and the BR&P were on the west side of the creek. Last year we hiked that r-o-w for a considerable distance back up toward Freedom. We quit when the going became really tough. We reached the point where the r-o-w was heading across the creek in the general direction of the scout camp. This r-o-w is covered by trees so it probably cannot be seen by a satellite except when there no leaves. H.T. Guillaume


Did you hike the BR&P connection to the old B&S grade at Crystal Lake?

When the B&S was abandoned, the BR&P bought a small piece of the B&S for ice loading, I think.

It can be seen here:

http://historical.mytopo.com/getImage.a ... g&state=NY
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby BSOR Patarak » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:15 am

Yes, I'm working on scanning parts of the B&S survey map. There are parts on there that show the "old" BA&A under their plan. I'm trying to clean them up enough to make sense out of them.

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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby pumpers » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:27 am

BSOR Patarak wrote:
Another issue I came up with on the TV&C's "corrected" filing that I posted above is the angle of the Brown School House Road to Route 98. It is not correct to what is there today. Also, when I looked at the first filing, the angle was more correct to what is existing today. Either an error was made in the 2nd filing, or it is showing a property line or something other than the road.

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make above. I was speculating that maybe B.S.H.R. was not there yet when they made their corrected filing, but since then I did find an 1869 map today that does sure seem to have it on there: http://www.harvestofhistory.org/assets/object-images/print/Cattaraugus-County.pdf. So it does look like it may have been a map error. I do believe the 3 lines on that map are property boundaries that correspond to the tree lines still visible today, and that the top one is the treeline just south of the 98/BSHR corner.

Some more speculation from the 1963 historic aerial. The B&S ROW is clear, but from the 1963 aerial you can make a case that the TV&C ROW from the BSHR area back up to Arcade was completely separate, perhaps 100 feet to the east. You can see a tree line east of the B&S for a short distance not far south of Arcade (just south of where the B&S comes in from the west to turn to parallel Rte 98), and you can see a line of discoloration in a field (which could be anything of course) which might be a continuation of it, a bit north of BSHR. And if you look at the field south of BSHR, west of 98, you can sort of see a discoloration in an arc which might have been the TV&C curving over to east, and the discoloration continues in the field across 98, towards the possible abutment I noted earlier. None of this can be seen in modern aerials.

I say "TV&C", but maybe I should be saying "BA&A". I"m assuming the BA&A just followed by TV&C alignment to Sandusky, although standard gauge, but I really don't know.

I'm looking forward to your B&S survey maps in the area! JS
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby thebigham » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:25 pm

The TV&C/BA&A row south of Arcade went through the present day enginehouse.

The B&S and the BA&A were 2 separate lines from Sandusky to Arcade.

The B&S probably built on the narrow gauge row from Sandusky south to the BR&P crossing south of Crystal Lake.
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Re: Wyman Bridge location?

Postby erie2937 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:05 am

I don't think we were on anything that connected to the BR&P when we hiked that old r-o-w. The r-o-w we were on now ends at a driveway. We followed it north for at least half a mile. It is close to the road that runs up toward Freedom on the east side of that valley. I suppose it is possible that a bit further down it could have come off the BR&P but I doubt it. The old highway bridge over the BR&P was actually the B&S bridge. But all of that is gone now. The road to Rushford has been rebuilt and the bridge over the BR&P/B&O replaced. The B&S r-o-w used to be very visible where it curved north and east toward Centerville. You have to head down that dead end dirt road to find it now. Actually there are two r-o-w remains visible in there - one is TV&C, the other is B&S. B&S did not follow the TV&C over Cream Ridge.

I think all of the folks who are interested in these old routes should gather in Arcade for a joint expedition. But do it before April 15th when Moore's pancake house on Galen Hill Road closes.

Also, in one othe earlier posts I read that the Wyman Creek wreck involved a train coming from a gravel pit ABOVE Sandusky. This could not be the gravel pit now owned by Gernatt on 98 because that is BELOW Sandusky. I drove Eagle Street very recently after eating at Moore's. That's level ground along there near 98 so a railroad could have been built in there east of present day 98. I am pretty sure I saw a gravel pit there too but I don't think it was close enough to Sandusky.
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