NEW CLEAN STEAM ENGINE IN THE WORKS

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Re: NEW CLEAN STEAM ENGINE IN THE WORKS

Postby n2cbo » Wed May 30, 2012 1:50 am

Well, one way to eliminate the watering problem is to use a "closed" system like a steam turbine with an electric transmission. In other words replace the diesel engine with a steam turbine, but I guess that would not have the "cool" factor that a reciprocating Steam Engine has... I guess the study will have to factor in the increased labor cost of a fireman on the locomotive in addition to the engineer.
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Re: NEW CLEAN STEAM ENGINE IN THE WORKS

Postby v8interceptor » Wed May 30, 2012 11:15 am

n2cbo wrote:Well, one way to eliminate the watering problem is to use a "closed" system like a steam turbine with an electric transmission. In other words replace the diesel engine with a steam turbine, but I guess that would not have the "cool" factor that a reciprocating Steam Engine has... I guess the study will have to factor in the increased labor cost of a fireman on the locomotive in addition to the engineer.


The ACE3000 locomotive proposed back in the 1980's would have had a condensing tender (based on a similiar system built for South African 4-8-4 back in the 70's) which greatly reduced water consumption and used automation to eliminate the need for a fireman so hypothetically those problems are solvable..
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Re: NEW CLEAN STEAM ENGINE IN THE WORKS

Postby mtuandrew » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:23 pm

The group's website: http://www.csrail.org/

That is one impressive, high-stepping Hudson. I have a feeling that the highest purpose of this project is to make biocoal a viable alternative to mineral coal, but it'll definitely be fun to see this engine put through its paces - using electronic wheelslip and valve timing will be a huge difference.
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Re: NEW CLEAN STEAM ENGINE IN THE WORKS

Postby Steffen » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:19 am

Sorry, but I guess:
Don't be to entousiastic about. Okay, the fuel is new, because this are solid 'chips' for a grate combustion - thus the aim is a little bit different.
But, what those people try to do, is nothing that new!

Simply they take a convention steam engine - the Santa Fe steam locomotive 3463 (CSR 3463) - and do a tuning of this engine.
Sorry, guys, at least a new steamer get's in service, but new is really nothing about.

The Tuning up of SAR 25NC 3450 into the so called SAR 26 class - better known as Red Devil - simply showed in the early 80thies, what with some understatement and knowledge in steam engineering could be done. I allways recommend to read David Wardales book about - just to get an inside, what is possible, and what is not. And even Red Devil was full of compromises, and not as desired the full 100% tuning up of the existing steamer - but even this tuned SAR 25NC class showed what an increase in technology and internal streamlining is able to do... But, is more tuned an engine becomes, as more experienced and educated the staff has to be.
David Wardale revisited SAR in the early ninties and cried about what was made out of his "Livio Dante Porta" - as the original name of the 3450 after tuning was. Many things had been removed of reconstructed, and even here the dying process of the steamers on SAR took tribute on this powerful engine.
But in switzerland a former companion, Roger Waller got in the right place and took over the steam power part from the former Sulzer Winpro company and established the DLM AG. In the late nineties he owned a german demokratic republic reconstructed steam engine of the former 'war class' type 52.
He did the same as his mentor David Wardale did, he tuned this engine. Instead of the GPRS system he established a liquid combustion system with the preference on burning light oil - but the engine is also able to burn natural oils, and with little changes even natural hard oils, like cleaned plant oils from deep fryers or other waste oils from food sources, like snack stalls or company staff restaurants - such oils were cleaned and then used as fuel source in power plants - so it was a small step, to consider the tuned steamer for being able to burn even this oil. But it was not implemented, but the possibility isn't that far and easy to build in.
So this engine got all the tuning up, from roller bearings and light gears up to advanced interfaces for computers and measurements - just to ensure, that this engine could be controlled totally by electronics from a control car at the other end of the train - like any other engine today.
Implemented was later not much of this, but the ideas are there and can be done, only the managment and money was the point... so, the possibilities are still given today, so if desired, they will be there... but 52 8055 is - as Red Devil was - a mondernisized steam engine but not to the 100% possibility. So still today a fireman and a driver are required, but in the project, the interfaces to replace both by electronic controls were given, but not implemented in the tuning process.
As Red Devil the 52 8055 shows all the same tuning success - power up, speed up, lower fuel consuption, reduced water consuption and an overall decrease of engine maintainace. Also using a new combustion system, the engine is nearly smoke free and thus having a nearly optimal combustion - hugest problem is still the heat transfer from combustion gas into the boiler water - but even here the tuning increased this ability of the boiler, making the 52 8055 a very economic engine.

So what do you think the Santa Fe steam locomotive 3463 will get? It won't something really new! All what can be archived is still there, with the well documented Red Devil of SAR and the 52 8055 in Switzerland.
So what should happen to this engine? It will still look and sound like we all know. It's won't replace any diesel or electric locomotive, because it's only tuned! So you still have the backdraws of the long boiler and the need for turntables. You have the backdraws of the need of feedwater and if soild fuel is need, for shops were this solid fuel can be loaded. As well as you might still need two people to drive this engine.

I said it before, and say it again: If you talk on a modern steam engine, forget ALL about what you know about a steam locomotive today! This engine won't look like a steam locomotive, it won't smell like a steam locomotive and it won't sound like a steam locomotive - so you even won't recognise that the train you sit in will be pulled be such a steam engine.
So you have to abandon the 'fan' of the old steam engines first, BEFORE you start talking about true modern steam constructed from the start up with a plain sheet of paper for the first construction idea.
And for those who think on steam electric propulsion ideas with steam turbines: Well, no. A steam turbine won't make the race and you won't go to something like steam and then electricity and next to mechanic power output - if you have a fine adjustable mechanical power output from the beginning.

So what we get is a symbol, a try, a tuning up.. it's a call for more, a cry for further development - just to get once the right people and investors together, to be able to start from a plain sheet of paper...
Allways keep two-thrid level in gauge and a well set fire, that's how the engineer likes a fireman
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Re: NEW CLEAN STEAM ENGINE IN THE WORKS

Postby bostontrainguy » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:21 pm

The new Trains magazine has an article about this written by Fred Frailey.
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Re: NEW CLEAN STEAM ENGINE IN THE WORKS

Postby atsf sp » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:19 pm

With their plans for this engine, it would be cheaper for them to start from the ground up with a whole new engine than to try to rebuild the ATSF hudson. They want to add stremalining and a cab at each end. I have personally seen this engine. it was going through a cosmetic rebuild project that has been stalled for many years. Exposed to rust. It is also a historic engine being one of 2 ATSF Hudsons surving and one of the handful of American Hudsons in existence. I feel this project will leave an even worse carcass of this engine somewhere and there is absolutely no hope of bringing steam back to US or worldwide rails.
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