Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby nydepot » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:45 pm

Don't forget to specify the date too, Don.

Post-1963 ETTs for PRR move Retsof Jct (a PRR location) to P&L Jct (an LV location), near Caledonia (a municipality). :wink:

Charles


BR&P wrote:Now wait a minute, guys. We're getting confused, and throwing some wrong or potentially wrong information around.

It is important to specify whether we are talking about municipalities, or railroad locations. In many cases you can have a location which is in the Town Of A, but to the railroad it is known as B.

For instance, Charles states the PRR/G&W interchange was Piffard. That may be true if you have a township property map. But in railroad terms, it was known as Retsof Jct (Station # 55 on the G&W, station # 6256 on the PRR). Likewise FarmallBob may be correct if the G&W crossing at Rt 36 is in the municipal entity of Wadsworth. But to the railroad, the DL&W / G&W interchange was Griegsville (station #35 on the G&W, station # 681 on the DL&W)

There was a Wadsworth NY on the LV (station # 450) and there was Wadsworth Jct on the PRR (Station 6274). (obviously the PRR/LV interchange we're discussing) There was no Wadsworth on the G&W.

This info is from a 1955 OPSL and a 1966 ORG. It's possible names were different in years before or later.
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby BR&P » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:42 pm

Charles, you are saying PRR continued the use of the name "Retsof Jct" even after the location which had been known by that name was abandoned? Interesting, and strange logic. But that's what I meant by my last sentence, "It's possible names were different in years before or later." Not everything the railroads did made sense when evaluated by conventional standards.

Is there anything to see hiking along the former PRR at the original Retsof Jct, or is it just a wide spot on the trail?
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby thebigham » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:11 pm

^From Bing Maps:

http://binged.it/Xw9yWO

Looks like just a wide spot in the trail...
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby nydepot » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:35 pm

Yes, they "moved" Retsof Jct to P&L Jct in their ETTs. As they were still interchanging with the G&W there. They expanded the LV in the area to handle it.

BR&P wrote:Charles, you are saying PRR continued the use of the name "Retsof Jct" even after the location which had been known by that name was abandoned? Interesting, and strange logic. But that's what I meant by my last sentence, "It's possible names were different in years before or later." Not everything the railroads did made sense when evaluated by conventional standards.

Is there anything to see hiking along the former PRR at the original Retsof Jct, or is it just a wide spot on the trail?
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby nydepot » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:37 pm

Nah, it extended well north.

Charles

thebigham wrote:^From Bing Maps:

http://binged.it/Xw9yWO

Looks like just a wide spot in the trail...
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby TB Diamond » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:07 pm

Mention has been made that the LVRR yard at P&L Jct. was expanded to accommodate the PRR/G&W interchange of salt traffic. Expansion was thus:

LVRR Bulletin No. 812 Zone E:

Effective 10:01 A.M. Monday April 22, 1963........P&L Yard

Yard track No. 10, 2012 ft. in length, In Service.

Yard track No. 11, 1840 ft. in length, In Service.

The bulletin further states:"These tracks for the exclusive use of PRR and G&W crews for the purpose of interchanging cars between their respective railroads".

In addition, LVRR Bulletin No. 815 Zone E dated May 8, 1963, effective at once states, paragraph (b):

P&L Jct. Yard

Yard track No. 8, 1560 ft. in length, In Service.

This track for the use of Lehigh Valley and G&W crews for the purpose of interchanging cars between their respective railroads and use of Lehigh Valley crews for switching purposes.
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby RussNelson » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:43 pm

BR&P wrote:Is there anything to see hiking along the former PRR at the original Retsof Jct, or is it just a wide spot on the trail?


I rode past it three times and never noticed anything there.
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby BR&P » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:42 am

RussNelson wrote: I rode past it three times and never noticed anything there.


Sad but not surprising, Russ. It's amazing how after relatively few years, nature reclaims the land and there is little or no trace of what used to be busy operations. (Not that Retsof Jct would have been a "busy" place very often, just speaking generalities). I gave someone a walking tour of the BR&P/B&O's docks operation in Rochester, and without a book with pictures, and sketching some drawings on paper, it was almost impossible to convey what used to be there and how it worked.
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby nydepot » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:13 am

Agree although it has been gone 51 years.

BTW, it was relatively busy. They got upwards of 30 cars a day 7 days a week. Those storage tracks would fill right up. All the while the G&W is doubling/tripling the hill bringing them down.

Charles
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby RussNelson » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:10 pm

Yeah, you can just look at the Topo map to see how steep that hillside is.
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby thebigham » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:01 pm

I was exploring the Greenway today from Belfast to Cuba and Hinsdale.

I found this at the Allegany County website:

http://gallery.alleganyhistory.org/albu ... t/Railroad

The first pic says: Abandoned Arch - Penna. Railroad-Belfast

The PRR had a tunnel under the Erie cutoff. When it developed a crack, the tunnel was abandoned and the line relocated to go under the huge bridge just north of Belfast.
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby BR&P » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:13 pm

And a mighty impressive trestle that was indeed! Some of us did some "outlaw" speedering back then, and ran that line several times before the rails were removed (and ultimately the trestles as well).
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby charlie6017 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:50 pm

Thanks for posting that, Chris......those are some excellent photos! :-D

Charlie
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby RussNelson » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:53 pm

thebigham wrote:The PRR had a tunnel under the Erie cutoff. When it developed a crack, the tunnel was abandoned and the line relocated to go under the huge bridge just north of Belfast.

Oh interesting!! Okay, here's my speculation. Look at this area on the aerial photo: http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=42.35478,-78 ... lfast%20NY
The center of the map is on the crossing of the PRR under the Erie's long bridge. The marker 'A' is pointing to a treeline that could be the southern end of the relocation. The marker 'C' is pointing at the northern end of the relocation. And there is a straight treeline between A, B, and C, where B marks the intersection of the treeline (my guess at the location of the tunnel). It's plausible because it's flat between A-B-C and the Erie runs on a high fill there ... plenty of overhead room for a tunnel.

Also, if you look at the photo on page 2 labeled "The Big Fill of Erie at Belfast", (which is looking northwest from the B&S R.R.), you can see the tunnel that the Pennsy used to go through the big fill.

Has anybody looked there? Do we have an agent who lives in that area?
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Re: Greenway - old ROW in Mt. Morris, NY

Postby nydepot » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:05 am

Speculation? There is no need for speculation as everything is completely evident on the ground, Russ. You need to visit!

You have the original line marked correctly. The Erie is very high up there and you have to climb WAY DOWN to get to the tunnel portal. I dropped my GPS there on the way up and had to re-trace my steps to find it. Fairly steep. I've done it many times. More to see of the PRR than the B&S undercrossing. You can see the B&S approaches for a long distance. The PRR is a bit obscured although evident in aerial photos.

The tunnel is filled in but you can see the outside, somewhat fallen as it is.

RussNelson wrote:
thebigham wrote:The PRR had a tunnel under the Erie cutoff. When it developed a crack, the tunnel was abandoned and the line relocated to go under the huge bridge just north of Belfast.

Oh interesting!! Okay, here's my speculation. Look at this area on the aerial photo: http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=42.35478,-78 ... lfast%20NY
The center of the map is on the crossing of the PRR under the Erie's long bridge. The marker 'A' is pointing to a treeline that could be the southern end of the relocation. The marker 'C' is pointing at the northern end of the relocation. And there is a straight treeline between A, B, and C, where B marks the intersection of the treeline (my guess at the location of the tunnel). It's plausible because it's flat between A-B-C and the Erie runs on a high fill there ... plenty of overhead room for a tunnel.

Also, if you look at the photo on page 2 labeled "The Big Fill of Erie at Belfast", (which is looking northwest from the B&S R.R.), you can see the tunnel that the Pennsy used to go through the big fill.

Has anybody looked there? Do we have an agent who lives in that area?
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