Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Postby rr503 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:16 pm

I don't think I know enough to say who's right here, but convention says that someone presenting an argument/hypothesis/fact must provide evidence for it. The onus of action lies on the author and not the reader to validate.

Imagine if a scientist said "Puppies cause cancer. I'm right, but I'm not gonna show you my research because you all should take the time to do it yourself if you care/want to participate in discussions with me."

Look, what you say sounds plausible, let's just see these stats, OK?
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Postby oibu » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:09 am

I would agree. But we've about hashed things to death here, and Matt says he left, so I don't think any evidence to begin to build a case for the repeated unsupported claims to the effect that "NS moves as much or more now as anybody, ever, in the last 50 years", is coming. Every claim he's made has been refuted by facts and/or supporting evidence (car counts/train counts/changes in car capacities/traffic patterns/funding sources/tax agreements/track conditions/etc.), but he still says it is so. So I guess it "must be", and all the data and evidence and specific citations are secondary to speculative opinion, and even though fewer cars go by every day there are "actually more" and we just can't all see them. I'm fine with rational discussion, but I'm not going to endlessly provide further presentations of evidence over and over just because somebody says they disagree every time, but yet then never provides stats or evidence to support their rebuttal beyond a generalized unsupported statement or some stat that is at best dubious evidence that things -might not- be -negative- and tries to claim that it is somehow a strong supporting argument that something is "very positive".

I'd love to see evidence to support that too, but it's not out there even if someone could/would provide it.

I think let's just move along, this has gone well beyond the point of any reasonable discussion or debate and isn't productive, interesting, or educational for anyone I don't think.

Hopefully a new bridge or inland port or Panamax or something will come along someday, for now that seems to be about all we can hope for.

If anyone actually is interested, here is one snippet I did quickly find about the CNYK tax deal. It doesn't give much detail, but it should at least put to rest the " since I don't know about it, and anything I don't know about doesn't exist, the tax deal isn't real" claims. :wink: ... /22/rr.htm
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Postby SecaucusJunction » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:19 pm

The CNYK lease of the railroad was dependent on the tax breaks. The lease says that the CNYK could void the deal if the tax breaks weren't given.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Postby CPF363 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:38 am

With all of the discussion regarding the Southern Tier Line, most especially east of Binghamton, the best thing that could have happened for this line is if CP was able to acquire the entire Southern Tier Buffalo to New Jersey line as a condition of the Conrail split. CP could have also asked for the former Michigan Central line between Detroit and Chicago to include the Porter Branch also. They could have used their ownership of the D&H and political influence to put pressure on the STB to bring it into fruition. Why they did not do that is anyone's guess. All of that would have orientated the D&H from being a north-south line to being more aligned with CP network to the west. But that all did not happen and if it did, CP could have moved much of the the long haul New York traffic away from American ports on the west coast and shifted it to Vancouver, something that U.S. roads did not want to see. NS and CSX broke up Conrail and the Southern Tier to the east was the odd man out.
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