Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby RussNelson » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:03 pm

Got pictures of the Oneida map and Jefferson County map. Unfortunately, the Lewis county map guardian had no record whatsoever of the railroad map ever being registered there.
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby RussNelson » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Lehighton_Man wrote:Found a bit more of the ROW going south. Don't know if you had already spotted it Russ.
Link: http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=43.40383,-75.34935&z=15&t=S&marker0=43.40275%2C-75.34597%2C9.0%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker1=43.40213%2C-75.34897%2C9.1%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker2=43.40442%2C-75.34266%2C8.8%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker3=43.40736%2C-75.34121%2C8.5%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker4=43.41014%2C-75.34001%2C8.2%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker5=43.40229%2C-75.34795%2C9.1%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker6=43.40571%2C-75.34183%2C8.7%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker7=43.40293%2C-75.34517%2C9.0%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker8=43.40896%2C-75.34056%2Cunnamed&marker9=43.40343%2C-75.34382%2C8.9%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker10=43.40168%2C-75.35154%2C9.2%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker11=43.40043%2C-75.35347%2C9.4%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker12=43.39947%2C-75.35622%2C9.5%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker13=43.40009%2C-75.35690%2C9.4%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker14=43.40089%2C-75.35651%2C9.3%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker15=43.40184%2C-75.35654%2C9.2%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker16=43.40248%2C-75.35793%2C9.2%20km%20S%20of%20Boonville%20NY&marker17=43.40330%2C-75.35936%2C9.1%20km%20SxSW%20of%20Boonville%20NY


In looking at the map I got from Oneida County, it looks like the railroad crossed the canal at K, just as you suggest, but *did* cross the creek, at O, and continued on that side until the road/canal/creek turned to the south due west of there, at which point it crossed back. There's a very suspicious shadow right about where the map says there should be one. It's on the south side of the creek, so would be difficult to get to until the vegetation is well grown up.

This explains why the railroad disappears from the west side of the road/canal/creek here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/365774288
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby RussNelson » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:11 pm

Again, using the map from the county, it looks like there is a visible bit of OC&R grading in Delta Lake State Park, just to the south of the entrance, between A and B. Not sure if it was a cut or a fill. I'm guessing cut, since this would have been a high point (given that it's now above the level of Delta Lake). Fruitful places to look are at C, and north of D for a bit, and as far north from E as are willing to bushwhack.


http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=43.36056,-75 ... rvoir%20NY
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby RussNelson » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:05 pm

It's quite possible that the OC&R's grade between Philadelphia and Carthage got reused by the New York Central's Ogdensburg Branch, formerly the Utica and Black River. Or, since the OC&R and U&BR were competitors, they merely went in a very similar routing. It looks like they definitely used different routing close to Philadelphia itself.
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby hojack » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:14 am

Russ,

I think what your looking at in Lake delta State Park is the embankments of the original Black River Canal. It's remains are visible as they go underwater and locked down into the village of Delta. When the dam was built in the teen's , the newer bypass canal was built crossing the Mohawk River below the dam on an aqueduct, then a flight of locks. New canal can plainly be seen in a cut in the "palisades", then runs up the east side of rt 46 to Westernville. I was always under the impression that the OC & R roadbed stayed on the west side of rt 46 below the tunnel by the five combines. I'll have another look. This is the best time of year to see it.
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby RussNelson » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:05 am

hojack wrote:I think what you're looking at in Lake delta State Park is the embankments of the original Black River Canal.

I don't believe so. The old canal routing joined with the new routing just north of the Delta Lake State Park. The thing I'm looking at in the lake is north of that.
I was always under the impression that the OC & R roadbed stayed on the west side of rt 46 below the tunnel by the five combines. I'll have another look. This is the best time of year to see it.

I was under that impression as well, and maybe the railroad was built that way, but if it was, they never revised the official legal document, which shows the railroad cutting the corner on the south side of the five combines. Given that they revised the routing in Jefferson County and registered the change, I gotta think they would have done that for Oneida County as well.

I'm probably going to try to get down there, maybe this weekend. Is the snow all gone, even in the back woods?
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby RussNelson » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:15 am

I found the Harry Prosser essay! He says there were going to be two tunnels south of Boonville, one was completed and the other begun. Also says that some of the railbed was mined near Pixley Falls. Also says that the railbed goes through the park and continues beyond it on the east side of the Lansingkill.
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby hojack » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:12 am

There is still some snow here and there in the Gorge. But a lot was washed away with the heavy thunderstorm during the night.
I still think what you see between A and B in the park is the original canal bed. I have walked it, but can stand corrected.
The county maps may never have been corrected between what was proposed, and constructed. I doubt that when the company was collapsing financially, they were too concerned about updating the maps at the county clerks office. This OC & R story has been talked about for years. Some of us believe little roadbed was graded between Lowville and Rome with the exception of the gorge and the one tunnel at Pixley Falls.

I have uncovered two photos of actual construction of a cut on the Rome and Osceola, but never can find the cut.
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby tree68 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:17 am

Given the cut at Houseville, I would submit that a slight modification of the usual assumption about the OC&R might need a little tweaking.

That assumption has been that they graded first and then planned to build the railroad. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that they identified major projects (big cuts, tunnels, fills, etc) and started on them first, with the rest of the roadbed to be built as needed. Since a lot of the line would have probably required only general levelling and the like, this might make sense, and could explain why the roadbed is so hard to follow - some sections may not have been built.
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby RussNelson » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:14 pm

hojack wrote:I still think what you see between A and B in the park is the original canal bed. I have walked it, but can stand corrected.

The old canal routing is well mapped on the century-old USGS topo maps. The canal is the ditch between the two big parking lots, about 1000' from the entrance. You can see it on the aerial photos and from the circling road that goes deep into the park.
The county maps may never have been corrected between what was proposed, and constructed. I doubt that when the company was collapsing financially, they were too concerned about updating the maps at the county clerks office. This OC & R story has been talked about for years. Some of us believe little roadbed was graded between Lowville and Rome with the exception of the gorge and the one tunnel at Pixley Falls.

They revised the Jefferson County map at one point, so it was probably important. I found that bit of railbed north of Lowville near the intersection of NY-26 and NY-420, so at least *some* parts were being built that far away from Rome. I'm sorely chuffed that the Lewis County map is not where it belongs. It would help a lot.

I have uncovered two photos of actual construction of a cut on the Rome and Osceola, but never can find the cut.

There's a cut on the south side of Sleepy Hollow Road. Is that the one you mean?
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby RussNelson » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:19 pm

tree68 wrote:some sections may not have been built.


No question of that .... no question.
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby RussNelson » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:20 am

Going through the elevation plan of the OC&R, I see only one mention of a tunnel -- opposite the entrance of Pixley Falls State Park.
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby hojack » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:10 am

I'd be interested in where the second tunnel on the OC & R was planned. Interesting Possner wrote about it and it was said construction of it was partially started? My grandfather said the Pixley tunnel was indeed completed . If I remember, ( he passed away 35 years ago ), he said the state pulled down the fill over the two portholes when Pixley Falls park was created to keep kids and others out of the bore, which makes sense. If the roadbed crossed the canal there over to the east side of Lansing Kill, it would make sense that the rode bed was leveled to create the picnic area.

I'll look along Sleepy Hollow Rd for the R & O cut. If I never saw it, I guess I have been sleepy.
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby RussNelson » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:26 pm

I looked on the route and elevation maps that the railroad had registered with the county. I only see one mention of a tunnel, and only one location where a tunnel would be warranted. I definitely want to get across the Lansing Kill at the five combines, climb up the hill and look for evidence of the railbed there. That may have to wait until August when the water level is at its lowest.
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Re: Looking for the Ogdensburg, Clayton & Rome grading...

Postby RussNelson » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:05 pm

RussNelson wrote:I looked on the route and elevation maps that the railroad had registered with the county. I only see one mention of a tunnel, and only one location where a tunnel would be warranted. I definitely want to get across the Lansing Kill at the five combines, climb up the hill and look for evidence of the railbed there. That may have to wait until August when the water level is at its lowest.

Oh, hey, I looked at the Pixley Falls State Park map and .... their trails go about half way from the parking lot to where the railbed should be on the south/east side of the Lansing Kill. Sounds like it *will* be possible to go looking in the spring for the OC&R railbed. I called the park and they said that it's still patchy snow there, that Delta Lake State Park still has one road closed, and the lake is still iced over. So I'm going to wait until next weekend to go exploring.
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