Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby TrainDetainer » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 pm

Me too. Here's a Blasdell connection to scale, probably not the best option. Shown as a 9 degree curve with spiral. No. 15 turnout at east end and #20 at west end as a tangent/LH from the curve. Within relatively decent operating parameters given the problems surrounding the whole issue, but still - environmental and property/NIMBY issues. Approximate parcel lines (my labels) shown, some omitted for clarity. Erie County shows parcel A the garage, B owned by Owasco River RR (a NYC land holding Co), C is the Legion (would need about 100 feet or so of their back yard), E is owned by the gravel company people, ballfield F is owned by the Village of Blasdell. Any major project like this would presumably involve complete replacement of the Electric Ave bridge and probably lowering/widening of the street to improve clearances. Property issues all the way out to BV adjacent to CSX would likely preclude that alternative.

Matt - I revised my 4:56 post a bit as info.
Blasdell NS conn.png
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby TrainDetainer » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:53 pm

Also waaayyyy too much time - Transco Wye looks like it could be redone to a bit under a 12 degree curve into No. 10 Turnouts. Could easily get a steady 15MPH out of it if they wanted to. And they'd likely want to make some curve improvements at GJ too (with wetlands issues involved) if a project like this was to happen, so the cost is likely to meet or exceed the cost of replacing the bridge at Draw. The big question would probably come down to cooperation/sticking it to CSX at Draw/NKP Jct. I'm sure NS has looked at all of this more than once by now....

Note that what I labeled here as the Ebenezer is CR designation - the NS TT page posted above indicates NS has renamed it the Buffalo Line.
Transco improved.png
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby pumpers » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:19 pm

Nice maps everyone! It is addictive.
The link I posted earlier to the 1952 map was wrong (senior moment), it goes to the right map now.
JS
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ywk8FV ... VFelL/view
Last edited by pumpers on Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby TrainDetainer » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:08 pm

Pumpers - The file name seems to be wrong as far as representing what it is - the last revision date shows 9-30-1960. It's a good time frame as it shows the Gardenville line still there, but as I noted on the other thread the 4-58 NYC TT doesn't list it any longer. Major removal looks to have been between 1960-62. The map isn't entirely accurate either - the TTs note the connection between NYC/PRR at Basdell Jct, which isn't shown on the NKP map, among other things, but it's great map to show general features of the area.

Another thing I haven't seen on any of these maps are the Penn 100 and 200 yards at Seneca.
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby ctclark1 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:30 pm

You have more time/better software than I.

It is interesting because the ex-FW curve on the Ebenezer looks just as sharp as the Transco, but it is listed in the track charts as a 10 degree curve into a 3.7 degree curve (moving TT South, from Seneca to Babcock).

As a question to those posing the Gardenville bypass options to fix DRAW issues, does anyone know what role Tift Yard plays into the transfer of traffic between the Lake Erie District and the Southern Tier Line? What effects on NS Logistics would having mainline traffic between those lines bypass Tift Yard have?


*For those unfamiliar with the area, Jct Yd has not yet been highlighted in any of the pictures posted yet. It is located between CP DRAW in my second picture and the old FW tower shown in TrainDetainer's second picture.
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby Benjamin Maggi » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:30 am

Thank you for the helpful maps!
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby pumpers » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:43 pm

TrainDetainer wrote:Pumpers - The file name seems to be wrong as far as representing what it is - the last revision date shows 9-30-1960. It's a good time frame as it shows the Gardenville line still there, but as I noted on the other thread the 4-58 NYC TT doesn't list it any longer. Major removal looks to have been between 1960-62. The map isn't entirely accurate either - the TTs note the connection between NYC/PRR at Basdell Jct, which isn't shown on the NKP map, among other things, but it's great map to show general features of the area.

Another thing I haven't seen on any of these maps are the Penn 100 and 200 yards at Seneca.


I found at least one source of the map - it is from that great treasure trove known as the "Multimodalways.org" web site:
http://multimodalways.org/docs/railroad ... 9-1952.pdf
It has the same title there as on what I posted, which corresponds to the original date on the lower right corner, but not the updates as you point out. Also, given (I THINK - can anyone correct my memory) that PRR and Nickel Plate shared tracks southwest of Lackawanna for directional running, you would think they would show a PPR connection on the map like the NYC/PRR Blasdell one you mention. Can't answer that one.
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby TrainDetainer » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:52 pm

It is interesting because the ex-FW curve on the Ebenezer looks just as sharp as the Transco, but it is listed in the track charts as a 10 degree curve into a 3.7 degree curve (moving TT South, from Seneca to Babcock).

ct - Unless there's some serious distortion in the GIS satellite photos, it can't be 10 degrees. I'd say there's a misprint in the track chart - and it looks like there was a translation error at least between the 1989 chart and the 1999 chart. Looks like someone tried to fix the 89 chart in the 99 version and combined the old EBES chart that ended at ERIE (MP2) with the zero end of the Buffalo Line chart. I laid a 12 degree 30 minute curve on the GIS and it fits perfect - a 10 doesn't even come close. My scale seems to be correct because the NS TT lists Transco as 17 degrees and my overlay fits it perfectly at 17, so I have to point to a track chart error for the former EBES.

What effects on NS Logistics would having mainline traffic between those lines bypass Tift Yard have?

I'd say all through and sort traffic would go to Bison and interchange with the short lines at Tifft would be an NS local running from Bison out to a Blasdell interchange point once or twice a day (more headache for NS). NS Tifft yard would become mostly useless but for storage although they have room to enlarge Bison again. All of this adds to the cost of a bypass over a better bridge situation at Draw. doubt you'd ever see this bypass idea come through, but there are also politics at play too so you never know.
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby Matt Langworthy » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:07 pm

I've seen NS 316 (road freight) interchange with the B&P at Tifft before proceeding to Bison Yard. Ditto for NS 145/149 -that road freight will interchange with the B&P before heading west. Eliminating moves over CP Draw removes that efficiency.

Another thing not discussed yet in building a bypass is property taxes. NY is one of the worst states (along with MA) for property tax in the country. My small house (less than 900 sq ft) and 0.11 acre lot generate $3000 in combined school and county/town taxes per year. The small connector at Blasdell would easily cost NS a small fortune.
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby ctclark1 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:00 pm

TrainDetainer wrote:
It is interesting because the ex-FW curve on the Ebenezer looks just as sharp as the Transco, but it is listed in the track charts as a 10 degree curve into a 3.7 degree curve (moving TT South, from Seneca to Babcock).

ct - Unless there's some serious distortion in the GIS satellite photos, it can't be 10 degrees. I'd say there's a misprint in the track chart - and it looks like there was a translation error at least between the 1989 chart and the 1999 chart. Looks like someone tried to fix the 89 chart in the 99 version and combined the old EBES chart that ended at ERIE (MP2) with the zero end of the Buffalo Line chart. I laid a 12 degree 30 minute curve on the GIS and it fits perfect - a 10 doesn't even come close. My scale seems to be correct because the NS TT lists Transco as 17 degrees and my overlay fits it perfectly at 17, so I have to point to a track chart error for the former EBES.

Found it.... Jumping back to Conrail's first TC from 1976 before FW was dismantled into what it is today the "Main Buffalo-Hamburg" chart, aka PRR's Buffalo Line (Intact from the downtown freighthouse at Mile 0 to GRAVITY) show a suspiciously similar 10 degree/3d40m curve at N/S Division streets, where the PRR turned southwest to follow the NYC towards the freighthouse.
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby TheBeaver101 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:10 pm

Wasn't there a third gardenville flyover connecting to the west side of the CSX main?
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby ctclark1 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:43 pm

The NYC Gardenville Line had two splits in the flyover where it connected to the mainline in Blasdell.
The first split was between the Electric Ave bridge and the two bridges over the N&W/Erie. The southward leg of this split then split again with one line passing over the main and the other staying on the east side of the main, these gradually came down to meet grade with the main and connected near Bayview Rd.
Obviously the northward line from the first split is still the existing set of bridges which meet the mainline at CP5.

The LV and PRR lines shared bridges towards the north over the N&W and NYC into the LV yard, as shown in one of my pictures.
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby TheBeaver101 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:52 pm

My friend said he actually saw some movement on the Lehigh and Lake Erie back in 1996, is that even possible? It was around the area where the ex PRR and Lehigh and Lake Erie merged together. Could it have been car storage, or maybe just on the ex PRR?
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Re: Abandoned Lehigh & Lake Erie in Buffalo/Lackawanna NY

Postby XC Tower » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:34 pm

Passing along this line on I-90 as a boy on my family’s annual “go to The Falls” trips during summer vacation in the early 1970’s, I never saw a train as we drove by. How many trains did the Lehigh Valley run on a typical day?
To a boy who loved trains, Buffalo was an awesome place to pass through! My dear old Dad even taking us kids on two specific trips to drive around to watch trains! On one, we ended up at the “Valley’s” Tifft St. Yard for a look around,seeing Cornell Red Alco’s parked near the Yard Office, burbling away. An employee came out, answering our waves and smiles with his own.
What a wonderful time it was!
Thank you for any help.



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