Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

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Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby Fireman43 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:38 pm

An observation:
All the destruction from heavy rain (9”), from Mill Creek wreaking havoc on this area recently reminded me of my query a few years ago as to what was the ravine and waterfall I had read about in a local history book that mentioned you could hear the roar of the falls in a heavy rain.. The book mentioned a trestle of the LV maIn and one of you provided details of the area. I hadn’t revisited the area
via Sat view till now and was amazed the power of water and the resulting destruction.
Not sure how to post a link to that view via my cell phone.

Thanks. Mark
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby nydepot » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:38 pm

Silver Thread Falls or Silver Falls, depends on the local you ask.
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby Fireman43 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:15 pm

Thanks

Which brings up another question that may not be pertinent to this thread subject line. Feel free to move it if you feel appropriate .

I’ve gotten hooked lately following the history of the LV predecessors in and out of Ithaca. Fortuanate to obtain copies of Herbert Trice’ the Gangly Country Cousin and the “Ups and Downs of a Rural line “ by David Marcham and “Railroads of Thompson’s County by Hardy Lee via Cornell’s online library and previous threads by posters on this forum.
That whole area looks like a spider web of lines!

Anyway in regards to the LV: please clarify these LV lines:
Out of Ithaca to Geneva was this strictly passenger ?
And out of Van Etten Junction up along Seneca ( in regards to my above post ) to Geneva- was this for freight?

Thanks Mark
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby TB Diamond » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:41 pm

Reference the Ithaca-Geneva line: Mainly passenger service but there was a freight local that I believe operated Sayre-Geneva via what was commonly referred to as the Ithaca branch. This branch was abandoned between Ithaca and Trumansburg in 1962 and between Trumansburg and Geneva Jct. in 1967.

The Van Etten Jct. - Geneva line, known as the Seneca Freight Bypass, did have some passenger service: Trains 2 and 3 which were discontinued on April 23, 1938; trains 5 and 6 which were discontinued on June 26, 1938 were switched from the Ithaca branch to the Seneca Freight Bypass by April 29, 1928; trains 7 and 8 operated on the bypass but were switched to the Ithaca branch on Nov. 29, 1942 then switched back to the bypass on Sept. 26, 1948. On May 25, 1959 7 and 8 were again switched back to the Ithaca branch after the discontinuance of 9 & 10. On Feb. 3, 1961 7 and 8 were discontinued.
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby lvrr325 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:03 am

The line via Ithaca was the original main line. However it has significant grades going in and where it formerly went out of Ithaca. The bypass line was built to reduce these grades. Once it was built, freight on the Ithaca side was limited to local cars, and once passenger service was gone, they got rid of the grade going north (RR west) along the lake. The remaining grade is bad enough that we were warned when I rode it to expect a hard slack run-in, but the engineer was good and kept it stretched out.
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby Fireman43 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:04 pm

Thanks for this interesting info.

Suppose I should change the subject line if at all possible but a few more questions on the Ithaca Branch (as opposed to the Lodi area.)

I like to reference the 1974 NYS DOT Abandoned Railroad Inventory report to get a feel of the ROW s since ripped out- has observations of the Ithaca branch but apparently the Bypass was still in service as no mention. When were each of these lines abandoned? I can vaguely remember late 70's traveling from Watkins Glen up to Geneva and at lower east side of Seneca lake and passing under the Bypass. If my memory after 40+ is right.

Mark
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby TrainDetainer » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:23 pm

The bypass remained until Conrail started on April 1, 1976. Was closed almost immediately IIRC, maybe on day one - it doesn't show at all on the 77 region map. The old DLW/Morse Chain branch up South Hill was listed for abandonment in 81, although I think it was already out of service due to the bridge south of Ithaca yard being knocked down by a derailment earlier. Coal for Morse Chain was thereafter unloaded to trucks in Ithaca yard via a conveyor that stood until recently. The Ithaca Branch from Sayre to Ithaca is still in use along with the old Cayuga Lake RR from Ithaca to Lake Ridge to serve Miliken Station and Cargill Salt at Ludlowville.
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby Fireman43 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:28 pm

Your mention of Cargill and the power plant bring up more questions I have but I best start a new thread as brings up questions I’ve had on the Cayuga RR ( Elmira , Cortland and Northern RR).

Thanks Mark
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby TB Diamond » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:49 pm

What was known as the Seneca Freight bypass, Van Etten Jct. MP 285.8 to Geneva Jct. MP 342.1 was abandoned Ordnance Int. MP 329.3 to Odessa MP 302.2 on April 1, 1976.

Thereafter ConRail continued to utilize the line Geneva Jct.-Ordnance Int. in order to serve the Seneca Army Depot. This line segment was eventually transferred to the Finger Lakes Rwy. which continues to serve The Andersons railcar repair facility located at the former depot. FGLK has also stored railcars at the depot in the past and may still.

Van Etten Jct.-Odessa Station switch was utilized by ConRail to serve Cotton-Hanlon in Odessa. This line segment was subsidized under the NYS LDL program and was referred to by CR as the Odessa Branch and later as the Odessa Industrial Track. ConRail abandoned this line effective December 16, 1977.

Tracks remained between Ordnance Int. and Odessa until Early September, 1978 when they began to be pulled up. Odessa-Van Etten Jct. was dismantled during the summer of 1978.
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby lvrr325 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:35 am

Wagner Hardwoods is a large concern in Cayuta that actually sits over the former ROW, it looks like something that should be being served by rail, had it come to be when the line was still intact. Where it crossed NY-13 has been completely reworked with the overpass eliminated. Much of the rest appears to be intact other than a few more overpasses or underpasses removed or filled in. It appears the estate broke up the property just enough to prevent any possibility of ever restoring it.
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby TrainDetainer » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:19 pm

Code: Select all
Wagner Hardwoods is a large concern in Cayuta that actually sits over the former ROW, it looks like something that should be being served by rail, had it come to be when the line was still intact.

Wagner's plant in Cayuta is the former Cotton-Hanlon sawmill operation that has been in business since 1921. While the mill is now Wagner, Cotton-Hanlon still exists as the timberland management company according to their website. The mill was very much there when the RR was and was served by rail (switch on the eastbound main/south side). There are cars on the siding in a 1968 Historic Aerials view. My grandfather hauled lumber to 'old man Hanlon', as he called him, during the Depression with a chain drive, hard rubber tired truck.

Thank you TB for the dates.
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby TB Diamond » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:36 pm

You are welcome.

About 1951 I rode up to Cayuta from Owego with a school pal and his father in order to visit the Cotton-Hanlon mill. We were allowed to go in and to watch the huge band saw at work. The saw had teeth on both edges and was powered by a steam engine. Amazing to see it zip through huge hardwood logs in both directions without slowing down one bit.

During the final years that the Lehigh Valley Railroad existed Cayuta was served by local GC-2 out of Geneva.

As for Seneca Freight bypass artifacts, the last I knew (2016) the bridge over Rt. 224 in Odessa remained extant.
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby lvrr325 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:45 am

I'm thinking the Odessa bridge remains because it was one paid for by the state in the 1950s or 1960s, perhaps as part of a highway improvement program. The key is it's green with horizontal web rather than vertical. There are a number of these bridges that still exist when there's no good reason for them.

Other LV examples: Rt. 98 in Batavia (still standing); the Rt. 96 overpass in Manchester (removed for a grade crossing many years ago); also I believe the LV over I-90 at Weedsport was one. Along the lake over 414 (also removed) may also have been one.

A D&H example in Cherry Valley NY, over Route 20, that I think was only used less than five years but still stands. That stretch of 20 is semi-interstate.

The D&H over I-90 at Schenectady is one still being used.

Former NYC/now RW&O over I-90 at Utica is another example that remains in service, although it was widened at the ends for arterial construction and got brown paint at that time.

The branch up the hill at Amsterdam uses one to cross Route 5.

I'm sure there's more I can't think of offhand. The only consistency seems to be crossing a state or greater level highway with no more than two tracks that saw construction or improvements in the 50s or 60s, save the Rt. 96 example which carried the highway instead. If the rail line carried more tracks, then the bridge constructed looked more like an interstate highway bridge with railings on a deck - LV over 5/20 at Geneva, NYC over I-90 east of Batavia are examples.
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby Matt Langworthy » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:19 am

lvrr325 wrote:Wagner Hardwoods is a large concern in Cayuta that actually sits over the former ROW, it looks like something that should be being served by rail, had it come to be when the line was still intact. Where it crossed NY-13 has been completely reworked with the overpass eliminated. Much of the rest appears to be intact other than a few more overpasses or underpasses removed or filled in. It appears the estate broke up the property just enough to prevent any possibility of ever restoring it.


The combined PC/LV estate did not care whether the LV main was restored or not. They scrapped it in 1978 for the money and left the ROW behind. Anything that was broken up (or appears to be broken up) was probably done by the property owners who regained the ROW when the easement ended. If the ROW didn't have an easement then the local or county gov't would have inherited it... and they would have made changes as necessary.
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Re: Lodi Point /Seneca Lake / LV main

Postby BR&P » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:34 am

Matt Langworthy wrote:The combined PC/LV estate did not care whether the LV main was restored or not.


Combined estate? Seems to me they were two separate entities altho it's getting to be a long time ago.
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