Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby Matt Langworthy » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:30 am

nydepot wrote:As a resident of Mendon, if you said I'll meet you in Mendon and went ant sat at Rochester Jct, you'd be waiting a long time.


That's because you are thinking strictly in terms of stations on the RR. John Q Public (myself included) generally tends to think of locations as defined by map makers or the gov't. The houses adjacent to Rochester Jct pay taxes to the Town of Mendon, not Rochester Jct.

This subject was discussed in depth on an R&S thread 3 1/2 years ago. A location can have both a RR name and a cartography/gov't name. In the interest of not diverting attention away from a boxcar in need of new home, this will be my final comment on location names in this thread.
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby The Man » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:03 am

Nycrrson, have you mistaken RGV for CNY NRHS? RGV has come a long way in recent years and if I had to donate my equipment I’d send it to RGV before any other group in NY. I have already donated to them in the past and I feel they are doing a rather fine job. Just to put as much rest to that as possible, many groups have gone and done nothing with great items and that list does not include RGV. They have paint on just about everything and covers for those that need it and paint would do little to help. The list of guys who keep that going are more than I feel like listing but one hell of a group!

Otto, put us down as willing to help get the car home if you guys go ahead and grab it!

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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby NYCRRson » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:36 pm

"Nycrrson, have you mistaken RGV for CNY NRHS? RGV has come a long way in recent years"

With all due respect the R&GVRR has not "come a long way". They have collected FAR MORE STUFF than they can ever reasonably take good care of.

They have fallen into the "let's collect everything we can" trap and have done a terrible job of preserving their collection.

They have two dissembled steam locomotives with a bare bones plan to do a cosmetic restoration of one of them.

They have a shrink wrapped passenger car, and a mostly disassembled subway car.

They have far too many diesel locomotives without the proper staff to maintain them correctly. One diesel loco needed an engine rebuild simply because the exhaust stacks were not properly covered while it underwent a 5 year long "re-paint".

They have a nearly 100 year old internal combustion railroad locomotive (one of the oldest IC RR loco's in existence) that was damaged during careless handling by their unprofessional "RR Crews" after a lengthy and volunteer funded rebuild from a total derelict to an operational locomotive.

In my opinion the R&GVRR should be banned from any further acquisitions of railroad equipment until they can demonstrate that they can properly care for the equipment already acquired by that organization.

Ironically, some at the the R&GV throw "darts" at other organizations (they should not repaint and display a caboose, because we are going to repaint and operate a caboose) and decry their efforts but never ever seem to take a serious look at the long list of equipment acquired by the R&GVRR and subsequently left to ROT.

And as a full disclaimer I volunteered at the R&GVRR for almost two decades and funded (almost entirely out of my pocket to the tune of $10K plus) the restoration of one piece of equipment in their collection. Then I was informed it was "in their way"......

I would encourage folks to seek other alternatives to preserve historic railroad equipment, the R&GV folks are "not cutting it"... But spend your dollars as you wish.

And this is not targeted towards any one individual, most of the volunteers at the R&GV are dedicated and generous folks, but they all need to step back and ask if they are really prepared to take on yet another RR car....

Equipment that was "collected" over 20 years ago (I was there when it arrived) has sat dissembled and not operational for several decades now.

I think the best home for a original LVRR boxcar is one of the nascent LVRR museum sites (Sayre, Williamsville, etc). Yes, they may only have a caboose and a boxcar, but they can probably scare up enough folks to paint them every decade or so.

Cheers, Kevin
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby nydepot » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:33 am

Just to clarify this - there is track panel in the hamlet of Mendon (Mendon Station Park) for a car. There is also track at Rochester Jct (Rochester Jct Park) that holds a boxcar and flatcar. I realize the car is going someplace else, but I wanted to be clear there are multiple spots in the town with track.

nydepot wrote:The boxcar is at Rochester Junction instead of Mendon. There is also a flatcar.
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby JoeBas » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:13 am

Hell hath no fury like a foamer scorned. ;)
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby jnugent56 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:23 pm

ctclark1 wrote:I think you've made your point very clear and your feelings of, for lack of a better word, hatred for the RGV museum. Something about a dead horse comes to mind.


Thank you. :-)

nydepot wrote:The boxcar is at Rochester Junction instead of Mendon. There is also a flatcar.


The flatcar was owned by the R&GVRR Museum for years until is was acquired by the Mendon Foundation. (It's a 1907 NYC 40' flat.) Instead of turning into paperclips years ago, it will now serve as a platform for performances at the park.

Similarly, in 2012 the Ulster and Delaware Railroad Historical Society acquired a side dump car from the R&GVRR Museum. The car was a great addition to their collection, as it represents the type of equipment used to build the Ashokan Reservoir. Again, the car lived to see another day.

The R&GVRR Museum is more than willing to talk with any group who might feel they can be a better home for a piece of equipment.

Sorry, Don, to stray from the discussion of your boxcar. I have 14 years worth of blood, sweat, and tears into the R&GV at this point, and it's tough to - not - say anything. :wink:
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby Otto Vondrak » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:59 pm

With so many false accusations flying around about an organization of which I am an officer, I am left with no choice but to respond. Kevin Klees, like most disgruntled former volunteers who sever ties with an organization for their own reasons, has information that is both out of date and incorrect. Many of the policies and procedures Kevin is criticizing were formed during his tenure, and the museum has taken great strides to reform its project management procedures to the benefit of the collection. Many of the decisions to acquire pieces and how they should be utilized at the museum were made decades before my arrival, though it doesn't diminish the value of the collection one bit.

NYCRRson wrote:They have two dissembled steam locomotives with a bare bones plan to do a cosmetic restoration of one of them.


Connecticut Light & Power No. 2 is a 0-4-0 fireless that was acquired from Gunlocke in Wayland because it represented similar locomotives that were operated at Kodak Park. I can't comment to the extent it is disassembled other than the shroud removed, but it is currently stored inoperative. Since the mission for the museum has changed since the engine was acquired in 1999, it is admittedly an odd duck out.

Brooklyn Navy Yard No. 12 was acquired from a private owner in Owego and moved to the museum in 1997. A dedicated group had focused on disassembling the locomotive as the first steps towards inspection and assessment for restoring to operation. After a professional report on the condition of the boiler was provided by Strasburg Rail Road, the project was shelved and attention turned to other more pressing matters. It was decided within the last two years the best possible course at this time would be to use the funds allocated for the project for reassembly and cosmetic restoration for display. There's a dedicated group that meets each week making progress on clean-up and restoration. If you want the details on the scope of the work, please contact project manager Joel Shaw.

They have a shrink wrapped passenger car, and a mostly disassembled subway car.


We actually have *two* passenger cars that have been shrink-wrapped.

Lackawanna 2628 is an electric m.u. car built in 1930 and retired by NJ Transit in 1984. It was acquired in 1985 and brought to Industry, where it was on display and occasionally pulled on our museum railroad by one of our diesels. Due to a metallic reaction common to these cars construction, the roof failed a few years ago. Lacking adequate funding to make a timely repair, the car was professionally shrouded to preserve the interior while we determine next steps for possible repairs.

Pennsylvania Railroad Pine Falls was built in 1939, retired in 1979, and acquired by Don Jilson in 1978. It was donated to our museum in 1985, and was on display for many years near the depot. While the interior was largely in good shape, the cor-ten steel body was rotting from the inside out due to the failing roof allowing water in where it shouldn't. Since the car was no long on public display, the board decided to shroud the car to prevent further damage from water while next steps are determined for restoration and repair.

Rochester Subway Car 60 was donated to our museum in 1956, before the museum existed. Loaned to Rail City for a number of years, the state of New York acquired it for possible use, but stored it outdoors under a shed near Albany until we proved it was ours and had it returned in 1998. A dedicated group of well-meaning volunteers disassembled the car in an attempt to assess and make metal repairs. Many volunteers were of advanced age and simply died off, and the museum shifted priorities. In 2015, it was decided to use money allocated to the project to hire metal contractors to construct and install a new letter board as the first step towards restoration of the car body. Thanks to successful fundraising efforts, the next phase of restoration takes place this summer with replacement of rotted body panels. The project moves as quickly as we find donors, and many other small pieces have been cleaned and restored awaiting installation. Please direct inquiries to project manager Rand Warner.

They have far too many diesel locomotives without the proper staff to maintain them correctly.


I think our Mechanical Dept. Supt. Joe Nugent and the volunteers who work with him would be very insulted to hear you say that.

One diesel loco needed an engine rebuild simply because the exhaust stacks were not properly covered while it underwent a 5 year long "re-paint."


This is false. According to the maintenance logs on Rochester Gas & Electric GE 45-ton No. 1941, the water infiltration began years prior to the unit being taken out of service for rebuild and repair. Aside from mechanical tune up, the cab required extensive sheet metal replacement and body work before it was thoroughly repainted. The project had stalled for many years until Joe Nugent took up the mantle of project manager and led the reassembly and completion of the restoration in 2012. The locomotive is placed in active service several times throughout the year.

They have a nearly 100 year old internal combustion railroad locomotive (one of the oldest IC RR loco's in existence) that was damaged during careless handling by their unprofessional "RR Crews" after a lengthy and volunteer funded rebuild from a total derelict to an operational locomotive.


Kevin led the restoration of "R&GV No. 1," a rare Plymouth Model BL built in the 1920s and later served at Odenbach Shipyards. The only "damage" is some scratched paint on the coupler pocket. As far as I know, the locomotive is mechanically sound, but none of our volunteers have been trained in its safe operation, so it remains stored under cover inside the Restoration Shop.

And as a full disclaimer I volunteered at the R&GVRR for almost two decades and funded (almost entirely out of my pocket to the tune of $10K plus) the restoration of one piece of equipment in their collection. Then I was informed it was "in their way"


I don't know the circumstances surrounding the restoration of the Plymouth BL locomotive, but I'm certain the contributions you made were of your own free will, and greatly appreciated. As far as it being "in the way," the locomotive lacks standard couplers and air connections (it is an industrial locomotive), so anytime it must be moved requires special procedures and extra care, which is why it has been moved to an inactive track where it will not be disturbed.

As far as Kevin's accusations about stuff left to rot, in some cases that is true, again surrounding policies and procedures put in place years ago. I think all organizations suffer from these kinds of growing pains. Over the last few years, there has been a concentrated effort to focus on keeping what we have in good condition, lest anyone confuse us for a junkyard again.

Some freight cars that are on public display have received a new coat of paint, and are about to get lettering. Extensive work was undertaken on the FGEX wood reefer to repair and repaint the body a few years ago. Our PRR mail car is being transformed with a fresh new paint job (and a new exhibit inside). Locomotive EK 6 is currently being transformed into a static walk-through display since its days of operation have ended. The LV caboose saved from the scrap yard a few years ago is being reassembled and repainted this summer after the completion of sheet metal repairs and a complete sandblasting and priming project. LAL RS-1 No. 20 which was donated to us at the end of 2016 was successfully reactivated and operated in 2017. Privately-owned Nickel Plate Alco S-4 No. was donated to us at the end of 2016 and was also reactivated in 2017. RG&E 110-ton No. 8 is currently in the shop getting its brake system replumbed, connected to new main reservoirs. We are also working with a private donor who is funding restoration of our 1926 Erie Stillwell coach.

Many more projects are in the works, and none of them move forward without adequate funding. We always welcome new volunteers and additional funding in any amount should you choose to get involved. Many, many people worked very hard to get the museum to the point where it is today (building up to 7,800 visitors in 2017 versus 4,000 visitors in 2013, for example). It's the job of the board to not only be responsible with the stuff already in the collection, but consider and take advantage of new opportunities when they arise.

Can we please return to the discussion of the LV boxcar and cease the extraneous chatter?

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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby BR&P » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:20 pm

Well, it's too bad this has taken the turn that it has. It certainly was not my desire to stir up such a chitstorm. I was going to stay out of the museum discussion, but it may be appropriate to state where I stand.

And maybe the mods could spin off the posts about museum worthiness into a separate thread. (While it brings up heated feelings, IMHO it is a valid TOPIC OF DISCUSSION regardless of which side we fall on.)

OK - I'm sure it's true RGVRRM has too few volunteers and too little money. And I'm sure that's also true for each and every alternative location for the boxcar. It's the nature of the beast, and I can't imagine any such organization turning away a cash donation, nor a volunteer willing to join their efforts. NOBODY has enough.

Years ago - decades ago actually - I was present and helped move the very first piece of equipment onto the property of what is now RGVRRM. When I see what has transpired since then I am truly amazed. I could name a good-sized operating freight railroad which does not have an engine house the size of what is now at Industry. No matter what aspect you choose - freight, passenger, locos, signals, there is something there to interest you. We can count quite a few small museums today which are "depot and a caboose" displays. Industry started out exactly that way back in the late 1970's so obviously they have done something right. What other, out of all the museums mentioned, offer actual rides or a display the size of what RGVRRM has?

And I can testify that they do NOT blindly acquire equipment. A while back I made a proposal for donation of several pieces of rolling stock which was quite attractive, and was turned down because they just did not have the room nor manpower. I felt that decision, while disappointing to me and probably to them as well, showed they were trying to be realistic and focused in their goals.

Look, guys, I don't care where the car goes. I'm enough of a railfan that I want to see it preserved, especially after the fine paint job Bernie put on it a few years back. While railroading has been in my blood longer than I can remember, I no longer have a career in it, and some of my other interests and hobbies demand that I turn the railroad equipment into cash, rather than make a donation. I have no problem with any of the various organizations mentioned in the thread, and whoever can come up with the cash in a timely fashion can have it. But time is running out, and I will soon have to act.

If the car goes to Industry, wonderful. If the car goes to Sayre, Williamsville, Martisco, Shortsville, Manchester, or someplace similar, wonderful. If the car gets trucked away like the LV and PRR cabooses at Manchester did, or cut up on the spot, not wonderful but so be it. I have donated items to more than one museum over the years but sadly I'm not Santa Claus and can't just gift it. I just hate seeing the efforts of ANY well-intentioned group attacked and regret that my attempt to see the car saved exposed old wounds once again.
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby BR&P » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:36 pm

Hey, just food for thought for anybody interested in moving equipment - either this car or others. When something has to be trucked, the first thought that comes to mind is a lowboy, and cranes to load and unload. We all know cranes are expensive.

While nothing is cheap, you might at least investigate the option of one or two of the big wreckers they use for semi's. You MIGHT find a local garage who would give you a reduced rate or even a freebie. The pic below is of two of those lifting a caboose, but prior to that we had loaded out the 45-ton GE loco using the same two wreckers so weight is not an obstacle. In this case they just lifted the caboose in the air, the lowboy backed under, and it was lowered down and secured on the truck.

Caboose being loaded out from KSRY.jpg
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby BR&P » Fri May 11, 2018 5:57 pm

OK guys, everybody has had time to ask questions, make plans and seek money. The old speeder has been removed from the 50' reefer, some parts have already left the LV car. I have had some discussions with the property owner, talked to scrap yard folks, and next week I'll be talking to a torch man.

I'll entertain proposals until next Friday night, May 18th, and will make a decision at that time. Not saying you have to hand over cash at that time, or move the car the next day, but let's figure out who has serious interest and capability to save one or both. If either car goes to scrap, we can talk about saving a given part (such as roller bearing trucks from the reefer, or ladders, or whatever).
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby BR&P » Fri May 18, 2018 7:08 pm

I am happy to announce that the LV boxcar will be preserved. I've been working with these folks for a while, but in fairness to those who felt there were many possible places worthy of having it, I held off to give everyone a chance. In the end, only one group stepped up to the plate.

I'll let those involved provide the details of their plans when they are ready.
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby Dick H » Fri May 18, 2018 7:41 pm

Good to hear. Compliments to BR&P and the new owners for your successful efforts to save this car.
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby charlie6017 » Fri May 18, 2018 7:51 pm

BR&P wrote:I am happy to announce that the LV boxcar will be preserved. I've been working with these folks for a while, but in fairness to those who felt there were many possible places worthy of having it, I held off to give everyone a chance. In the end, only one group stepped up to the plate.

I'll let those involved provide the details of their plans when they are ready.


I'm glad to hear this news, it's a win-win for everyone. 😎
'
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby MACTRAXX » Sat May 19, 2018 12:19 am

Dick H wrote:Good to hear. Compliments to BR&P and the new owners for your successful efforts to save this car.

BR&P: I will second DH and await when and where the LV boxcar will be going. Good outcome here.
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Re: Looking for a nice LV boxcar?

Postby blackbearford » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:27 pm

Judging by the work and two sticks of rail in place by the Manchester caboose, I’m betting I’ll see something new on display every time I run to the grocery store soon. Side note: just noticed the two boxcars on Merrick Ave. have new air hoses and knuckles. Maybe I didn’t notice when they were last moved. Extensive cleanup by the roundhouse also observed as noted in another thread.
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