JW&NW Spurs

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JW&NW Spurs

Postby nydepot » Thu May 01, 2014 8:16 am

More cleaning up of my files. I've been pouring over and cleaning out hundreds of map notes. Some I never got an answer on in my years of reading.

This one is the Jamestown, Westfield and Northwestern. Timetables have been no help and the map on wnyrails.net doesn't have the spurs.

Any thoughts, guys? Thanks as always.

On the Jamestown end, there is a spur heading northeast to - nowhere. It's still evident in Google Maps:

JWN Spur.jpg
Jamestown Spur Topo


gej.JPG
Google Earth



On the Westfield end, there is a spur running south before entering the city. This one is harder to see on Google Maps although you can make out something of the southern end from where it meets the river, south.

westfield.JPG
Westfield
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby map193 » Thu May 01, 2014 7:57 pm

For the spur in Jamestown, it looks like it ends where the country club now stands on RT. 60. I'm not sure if that country club was there when these maps were drawn out but it may be a step in the right direction. Mr. Art Audley or Mr. Dave Becker may have some more insight as to where this spur led to, they are pretty knowledgeable of the area.

Some other news regarding the JW&NW, it appears that the old trolley house that stood down by the river was recently demolished after sitting vacant for many years.
-Marc Pisa
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby map193 » Fri May 02, 2014 8:40 pm

I did a little bit of digging around on the website for the Moon Brook Country Club and stumbled across a couple of books recalling the clubs history, in one of the books it mentions an old railroad right of way that ran through the golf course before the construction of rt. 17. Here is a link to the book it is on the bottom of the third page and the paragraph starts with "old number 7." http://www.moonbrookcc.com/weeks.html
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby pumpers » Mon May 05, 2014 7:33 am

Regarding the Jamestown spur and the golf course, I found this:
http://www.wnyrails.net/railroads/jwnw/jwn_home.htm
"A branch of the line was opened from Clifton to Falconer on February 15, 1897."
and
"The Falconer branch was leased for a time to the Erie Railroad and was abandoned and torn up in 1908. " - would match the golf course history dates.

Another State of NY report says the branch was "not operated" in 1912. Page 73 in legend at bottom of Table 107a http://books.google.com/books?id=ApA9AQ ... ey&f=false

Could this be it? I don't know where "Clifton" is. Suspiciously, however, there is a "Clifton Ave" which intersects Rte 430 (Fluvanna Ave.) very close to the site of the junction. JS
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby nydepot » Mon May 05, 2014 12:00 pm

I can't find a map that takes it further than shown BUT 3.46 miles does get you to Falconer. Maybe an early Erie attempt to get to businesses in Falconer seen as they were south of town with the NYC going up through.

Thanks everyone.
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby pumpers » Mon May 05, 2014 1:26 pm

Yes, I have only come up with that one topo (1905?) that shows the line ending partway to Falconer, although I don't think those maps were always up to date. I really don't know if the line was ever built to Falconer - it was perhaps leased to the Erie but that doesn't mean that the Erie (or whoever) actually finished it. It is possible that modern Route 17 is on top of it most of the way to Falconer, explaining why there is nothing to see today, even if it was built.

While on the subject in the area, does anyone know how Chautauqua Traction (the line on the west side of the lake) got from Westfield to Mayville? I saw one comment on line that it ran on Portage Rd, but that is like a 400 ft/mile (7 or 8%) grade for almost 2 miles going up hill from Westfield heading southeast. That sounds like a lot even by traction standards, although I am no expert. (The curvy JWNW works out to a very steady 2% over 7 miles, in contrast).

JS
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby nydepot » Mon May 05, 2014 2:30 pm

Look at my last map. Maybe that spur off the JNW is actually the CT coming into town? Did it share trackage in Westfield?
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby pumpers » Mon May 05, 2014 5:13 pm

nydepot wrote:Look at my last map. Maybe that spur off the JNW is actually the CT coming into town? Did it share trackage in Westfield?

It is an appealing idea and the thought did cross my mind. However, they originally had separate ownership, and JWNW was built as a steam powered RR and much later converted to electric, while I think CT started as electric traction. So I sort of doubt they shared trackage, but I could be proved wrong. More likely perhaps they had separate but adjacent ROW's, which showed up on modern topo maps as one abandoned line. Somewhere out there is a western NY traction buff who knows all this!

Related, does anyone know about the "Westfield Viaduct" - which was in the town of Westfield from this postcard view, and did support at least one trolley line...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PANORAMIC-VIEW- ... 1420723511
Click on the picture to zoom in.
JS
Edit: In support of your idea, Open Street Map shows the same thing as the topo on the south side of Westfield, but also shows the stub-ended ROW going on to connect back to Portage St (and on the way to Mayville, assuming the 7% grade was not insurmountable)... http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1 ... /42.3056/-
2nd Edit: ignore the question about the viaduct. It was supported Main St. as it crossed Chautauqua Creek. This was at right angles to CT and JWNW. The trolley on it was the Buffalo to Erie line.
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby TB Diamond » Mon May 05, 2014 10:13 pm

In the book Jamestown and Chautauqua Lake Trolleys it is mentioned that the Chautauqua Traction Co.considered a extension to Westfield a must and track was put down along the highway between Mayville and Westfield. This extension was ready for service by 24 September 1906. Appears that the highway must have been Portage Road.

The JW&NW passed under the Westfield viaduct mentioned above and this is where transfers with the Buffalo & Lake Erie Traction Co. were made.
You can't go home again- Thomas Wolfe
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby RussNelson » Tue May 06, 2014 12:55 am

http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1179218 is my best guess at the Chautaqua trolley route.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/76297103 is the Westfield-Johnstown Trolley branch going up the hill.
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby pumpers » Wed May 07, 2014 5:34 pm

I found more info about the routes of JWNW and CT in Westfield. Especially helpful is a Western NY rails page for Westfield with old maps and pictures. http://www.wnyrails.net/cities/westfield.htm
Interestingly, it shows that in 1912 the JWNW connected to the Nickel Plate, but by 1923 that was gone and the JWNW connected to the Lake Shore & MIchigan Southern (LSMS). One postcard show the trolley tracks and a car next to the LSMS station . The track connection is not shown, but it must have been there for the freight interchange. JWNW changed hands several times - one of the owners must have preferred NYC over the NKP.
To cross the NKP to get to the LSMS, the 1923 maps shows the JWNW going under the NP trestle over Chautauqua Creek. This modern Bing maps view (looking east) shows a path from the left field line of the baseball diamond to the trestle that sure looks like it could have been the JWNW RoW! http://binged.it/1hy5bgQ
TB already noted that JWNW was just west of Portage St went it went under Main St at the viaduct (into the region of the baseball field in the Bing maps link).

I also found a 1906 application by CT to temporarily cross the Nickel Plate at grade on Portage St (presumably when CT first reached Westfield) while a bridge for Portage St was being built (and that CT would then take the Portage St bridge over the NKP. http://books.google.com/books?id=J5g2AA ... ld&f=false
I have also looked at old Sanborn maps and the 1912 map shows Portage St bridges over both the NP and the LSMS (which had more tracks and was presumably much busier). So it seems quite sure that CT would have crossed LSMS on the Portage St bridge over LSMS.

Regarding CT, the Western NY rails site shows the corner of Main St and Portage St , with a few cars on the tracks of one street. That big building might be the Welch building (on the south corner), which would put the cars on Portage St. In the foreground you can see another track on the other street (Buffalo and Erie line?) but no matter which street is which both had trolleys, and that must have been the CT on Portage Street.

So putting it together I think that CT ran on Portage Street through the town of Westfield, and stayed on Portage Street to the north across the NKP and LSMS, and probably on it all the way out to Barcelona at the lake. This is different than what is on the OpenStreetmap, but that is my two cents.

Exactly how CT came into Westfield from the south end is still not certain to me, for example if it got off Portage ST on the south end of town for a while and where.

Well I just wasted a good hour! JS
EDIT: I just adopted Aji's suggestion below for the NKP!
Last edited by pumpers on Thu May 08, 2014 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby nydepot » Wed May 07, 2014 6:55 pm

"Grape Belt Trolleys" has a comment that village trustees had a meeting 11/3/1905 and granted approval for the CT to build track on English St to connect to the town's railroad stations. The Westfield Street Railway was organized by the JC&LE to prevent it and failed.

Another quote says the CT crossed the LS&MS at North Portage St. and headed to Barcelona. Barcelona track was removed in 1920.

Charles
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby Aji-tater » Wed May 07, 2014 11:08 pm

Come on now! Every self-respecting railfan knows the difference between the Nickel Plate NKP and Northern Pacific, NP. :(
Last edited by Aji-tater on Thu May 08, 2014 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby pumpers » Thu May 08, 2014 8:06 am

Amazing what is out there:
Decision by authorities that the CT will have to cross the LSMS on the Portage St bridge: http://books.google.com/books?id=gjo8AQ ... an&f=false

1921 Abandonment Decision of CT between Barcelona and the LSMS: at the bottom of page 107 it says that CT ran on the highway between those points (Portage St). http://books.google.com/books?id=wicmAQ ... na&f=false

OK, now for my idea on the south end of town. I think we all agree that coming in from Mayville, near Westfield the JWNW followed the S-curve on the topo in the first post in this thread, that it crossed Portage St just south of what is now E Campbell St, and then ran on the west side of Portage St. If you look in street mode on Google Maps, near the bend in Campbell St, you can still see what I think was the south abutment that carried the JWNW over E Campbell St. I somehow can't figure out how to make a direct link to the view.

Now this 1906 official report on RR crossings in New York: http://books.google.com/books?id=FdYpAA ... ld&f=false and click on the page 172 link. It says that that CT may cross the Jamestown, Chatauaqua and Lake Erie Steam RR (what later became JWNW) "in an existing undercrossing near Factory St" Looking at old Sanborn maps, Factory St was very near or probably the same as the modern E. Campbell St (actually it continued across the Creek and joined what is now West Campbell St). So we can assume that CT went under JWNW at what is now E. Campbell St at the abutment.
Note on maps that there is an "Old Portage Rd" where Gale St joins Portage Rd. The straight section of modern Portage Rd which is a cutoff to Old Portage Rd is new, confirmed by old maps http://historical.mytopo.com/getImage.a ... g&state=NY. Furthermore, the old Portage Rd had an exceeding steep drop and rise (see the old and new topos) in a ravine. The grade on Gale St is much less initially than that on Old Portage Rd.

So coming from the south, I think
a. CT came from Mayville on Portage Rd
b. At Gale St, CT got off Portage Rd (to avoid the steep grade at old Portage Rd) and then followed the dotted line on the topo map in the first post.
c. Then I do NOT think that the CT and JWNW RoW's merged as shown on the topo map near Campbell St. Rather, I think the CT joined E. Campbell St just west of where the dotted line junction is shown, and then ran UNDER the JWNW where it crossed E. Campbell St.
d. The CT then ran east up E. Campbell St to Portage St and continued north, all the way through Westfield (and to Barcelona when it was extended).

I don't know how to incorporate that into Open Street Maps, though. Comments and suggestions?
JS
EDIT: links fixed
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Re: JW&NW Spurs

Postby RussNelson » Fri May 09, 2014 12:11 am

There's a bit of a learning curve to edit OpenStreetMap. I don't mean to discourage you from learning, just to warn you that it can be frustrating. First, you'll need to create a user login -- there are no anonymous edits. Then, when you're logged in, there will be a blue "Edit" button. So locate the area of the CT that you want to edit, then hit Edit, and it will throw you into the editor. You can see that in places where the CT had a dedicated right-of-way, there is a dedicated way in OSM, tagged railroad=abandoned. In places where it was street-running, the road is included as part of the CT, in a "relation". That's a grouping of all of the parts of something. In this case, a railroad route. In other cases it can be a lake and its islands.

If you want to have a go at it, feel free to ask me questions. If not, though, I'm happy to make the edits you suggest. Just let me know, because the worst would be for you to put effort into it, only to find that I had gone ahead and made the edits ahead of you.
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