Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

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Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby HexOmega2319 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:41 am

Hi All,

Just curious, why does it appear that the Erie Main was rerouted between CP Rock Glen and CP silver springs. Looking at satellite imagery, it looks like there was a realignment a long time ago but I have not found any information on it. Anyone know anything about it?

Thanks
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby RSD15 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:34 am

I believe the alignment was changed when they eliminated the crossing at grade and installed the overpass on RT19.
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby lvrr325 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:04 am

It would appear to predate the 1950s era state-sponsored or funded crossing eliminations, most of which are given away by their horizontal web plate girder design. A few outright look like highway bridges from the road passing under, too.

At least, I suspect they were state funded since some cross the Thruway or other road relocations.


(examples: LV over NY-224, Odessa; MA&N over I-90, Utica (altered for Rt. 49); D&H over Route 20, Cherry Valley branch; LV over NY-63, Batavia; LV over Thruway, Weedsport (since removed); Catskill over NY-9W, Kingston; NY-96 over LV, Manchester (since removed but shown in one LV In Color book); some Lockport-area bridges...)
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby BR&P » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:04 am

Parts of that grade are visible on Rt 19, right near the water plant IIRC. I think there used to be a salt plant in that area, could it have been a spur to serve that? Possibly even connecting (physically, not for tariff purposes) with the BR&P?
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby RSD15 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:23 pm

The concrete abutments for the overpass has a date stamp of 1932 if that helps.
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby boblenon » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:54 pm

I've noticed that too in the past, and I'll bet the salt mine or some other industry.

Look at the property lines today...
http://www.wyomingco.net/webgis/#app=65 ... tedIndex=0

Then take a closer look at the row. Just East of Rt19 there would appear to be a bit of row in a north-easterly direction (like there was a switch). Now, it looks like maybe it connected to the BRP...?
http://goo.gl/maps/nkQNR

BUT, Then just beyond that would appear to be ruins in the trees.
http://goo.gl/maps/wHqWU
http://binged.it/1hXf5OA

Now, if you look at the east end of this .... that field shows no sign of a ROW at all. And presumably the "straight-line" one would extend back to the mainline, should indicate some former ROW in the trees, and it does not.
http://goo.gl/maps/6HFQb
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby lvrr325 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:22 pm

Vintage Aerials have topos back to 1905 and all show the current alignment. Up through 1932 there's a spur from the west end of the old alignment that curves before it would have crossed the road, to head more directly east and cross north of where the old alignment appears to have, it ends east of what is route 19. Seems to go into the ruins area. There is a BR&P siding to the other side of the structure but they do not connect.

It seems clear to me there was an old alignment across the field, there is a path through the trees on the east side of it, but it's amazing any of it is visible given it seems to have been changed over 100 years ago. It does look more apparent in the oldest aerial photos I found (1970).

That curved arc of trees that aims back eastward does not exist in the 1970 or 1972 photos.
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby scottychaos » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:28 pm

That part of NY is known for having unstable ground..the BR&P/B&O had issues for years..
and we know the Erie also re-aligned their mainline between Portageville bridge and Silver Springs at some point..
They probably built the original line, then found problems in certain areas, and the best fix was to move the tracks a bit..
I would suspect that these re-alignments both east and west of Silver Springs are simply due to issues of geography and geology..
they could go all the way back to the mid 19th century..

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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby sd80mac » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:56 am

scottychaos wrote:That part of NY is known for having unstable ground..the BR&P/B&O had issues for years..
and we know the Erie also re-aligned their mainline between Portageville bridge and Silver Springs at some point..
They probably built the original line, then found problems in certain areas, and the best fix was to move the tracks a bit..
I would suspect that these re-alignments both east and west of Silver Springs are simply due to issues of geography and geology..
they could go all the way back to the mid 19th century..

Scot



My understanding is that Erie re-alignment the mainline due to grade. They need to put in "S" curves to help trains to climb up the grade easier...
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby scottychaos » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:04 pm

sd80mac wrote:
scottychaos wrote:That part of NY is known for having unstable ground..the BR&P/B&O had issues for years..
and we know the Erie also re-aligned their mainline between Portageville bridge and Silver Springs at some point..
They probably built the original line, then found problems in certain areas, and the best fix was to move the tracks a bit..
I would suspect that these re-alignments both east and west of Silver Springs are simply due to issues of geography and geology..
they could go all the way back to the mid 19th century..

Scot



My understanding is that Erie re-alignment the mainline due to grade. They need to put in "S" curves to help trains to climb up the grade easier...


How does an S-curve make climbing the grade easier? seems that would make it harder, not easier...
the curve adds friction, making a climb harder..

and yes, I remember that now! I think it was determined that the old alignment immediately west of the Portagville
bridge was changed due to grade..I forgot about that.
thanks,
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby BR&P » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:24 pm

Scot, it's a case of trading grade for distance. Most often in those situations the new alignment will be a longer route, and possibly involving more curves, but at a significantly easier climb.

I do not know whether or not that was the case in the particular example we're discussing here.
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby sd80mac » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:28 am

BR&P wrote:I do not know whether or not that was the case in the particular example we're discussing here.


It was mentioned in here somewhere if I remember right... Someone did created topic about that or related to approach to bridge on that side of bridge. A person said that S curve aligment was built because of the grade climbing on original alignment.
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby RussNelson » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:25 pm

Here is the realignment in question: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/48060897

It's interesting that a bit east from there is the placename "Silver Lake Junction" at the B&O bridge over the Erie, but there seems to be no connection there. Just north of Silver Springs there's a yard where they connect, but not at "Silver Lake Junction". Why call it a junction when there is no junction?
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby lvrr325 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:25 am

Possible the crossing was once at grade, resulting in a junction.
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Re: Old Erie alignment near CP Silver Springs

Postby Old & Weary » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:08 am

Silver Lake Jct was the name for the BR&P/B&O location Just above the lettering where the single track branch to Silver Springs and Perry branches off to the South. In later B&O years, there was nothing beside the tracks here but a vacant concrete phone booth. There was a siding on the BR&P main at one time and possibly some other tracks and structures during the early BR&P years when traffic to Perry could be several trains a day. Just West of the Junction, The BR&P crossed the Erie main on a high Steel trestle and continued across Route 19 where the narrow abutments are still in place today. A connection at the bridge would have entailed a lot of excavation and been pointless as interchange with the Erie was also at Silver Springs. There is no evidence of any connection in a 1910 or so photo I have which shows the bridge in the background or when I spent an afternoon there photographing Trains under the bridge shortly after Conrail. It looks like the label for Silver Lake Junction on the map was just poorly placed and should have been a little higher up.
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