Railroad grade out of Angelica

Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby Cactus Jack » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:23 pm

Ok, after this last post, now I am confused .....
Cactus Jack
 
Posts: 767
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:45 pm
Location: finally back in Upstate New York

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby CarterB » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:42 pm

The L & P must have been very short lived indeed according to NYState docs>>>>Report of the Railroad Commissioners 1890
Under the title of Lackawanna and South-Western...L & P's successor.
"The Lackawanna & Pittsburgh Railroad Company was organized under the General Railroad Act., Nov 1 1882 to construct a standard gauge railroad from Belfast in the County of Allegany to Perkinsville in the County of Steuben. The said last two companies were consolidated June 1, 1883 as the Lackawanna & Pittsburgh Railroad Company, and thereafter opened a narrow-gauge railroad from Belfast to Perkinsville."....." Under a decree of foreclosure and sale made March 11, 1889 duly sold on the 27th day of April 1889, to a committee of the bondholders.....said railroad was reorganized May 7, 1889 as the Lackawanna and South-western Railroad Company....." From there I think it went to a salvage company (Central Construction or variously noted as Central New York & Western) who operated it from Aug 1889 to April 1890.

THE CENTRAL NEW YORK AND WESTERN RAILROAD.. . . The Central New York & Western RR
Inc. in NY, November 18, 1892
This company took up the following rails:
21.74 mi. 3'ga. Angelica to Bolivar, NY, 1894
6.50 mi. Angelica to Rockville, NY (Belfast), 1895

I guess the P&S picked up what they wanted after 1890?
Bring back the Slumbercoaches!!
User avatar
CarterB
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:19 am
Location: Bergen County, New Jersey

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby Cactus Jack » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:29 pm

The L&PS was sold Sept 24, 1892 to a New York attorney, John Byrne. Byrne was behind the CNY&W. He approached the Lehigh Valley with the idea of extending to Naples NY to meet the LV as an access for LV coal from the LV coal lands in Jefferson County PA. The LV either did not respond or terms could not be agreed to. Byrne also acquired the St. Marys and Southwestern a Hall & Kaul logging railroad and interest in the Shawmit mines originally belonging to Boston interests (hence the name "Shawmut") His plan was to link the coal fields in PA with trunk lines to move out coal. PS&N was formed as a complete system Augist 2. 1890 of 4-5 smaller roads including the CNY&K, CNY & Northerm, and BSt.M&SWMill Creek Valley RR and Smethport & Northern.

That is about as much as I know of the early times other than it was in almost perpetual receivership and had a terrible grade and alignment for its' intended use.
Cactus Jack
 
Posts: 767
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:45 pm
Location: finally back in Upstate New York

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby RussNelson » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:20 pm

Yes, dj_paige, I don't believe the southeast end of the map at alleghanyhistory. It sends the B&S up over a 100' hill. And their L&P routing is not consistent with other descriptions of how the L&P goes through the golf course and crosses the Genesee.

Cactus Jack wrote:Ok, after this last post, now I am confused .....

Mwahahahaha! My work here is done.
User avatar
RussNelson
 
Posts: 3815
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:20 am
Location: Potsdam, NY

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby thebigham » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:44 pm

If you are driving south on Rt 19 just past Gleason Hill Road, the L&P grade comes in from the left. It can easily be seen from the highway.

The grade east of the Genesee River bridge to the golf curse is very difficult to trace. When nydepot and I hiked it, it was very confusing and impossible to find.

The east abutment of the Genesee River bridge still stands. You can't see it on the Bing map I posted.
thebigham
 
Posts: 3591
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:27 pm
Location: Arcade, NY

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby pumpers » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:00 am

Hi all, take a look at http://historicaerials.com - . THere is a 1952 aerial photo of the area worth the proverbial 1000 words...
You can trace the B&S and the PSN easily up from Belvidere. In the region of interest here the B&S stays close to 19 on the west side as on Russ's map.

You can also clearly see the L&P ROW between Black Creek and 305, and it sure looks like even an abutment on the northwest side of Black Creek, with a shadow on the northwest side of the abutment.

The crossing of the B&S and the L&P isn't clear, but seems to be near White Creek Rd, and the L&P crossing 19 just after that. COming from Belfast on 19, when 19 bends south just west of White Creek Rd, you can see hints of the L&P on the north/east side of 19, and crossing the Genesee River, and then going into a field.

You can see hints of the L&P continuing southeast, and interestingly, part of modern Route 16 appears to be right on top of the L&P ROW, not separate from it as in Russ's map. Coming up from 19 on Route 16, after about 1-1/2 miles, when 16 takes a bend to the left just before Old State Rd, you can see the L&P Row continuing straight.

One more thing - up at the junction with the PRR (Canal railroad) by Belfast, it looks like the L&P connects to the north on the PRR (e.g. coming from Angelica trains would continue towards Rochester). The map in the AlleganyCounty link (originally from P. Pietrak) shows the connection heading south. Maybe both were there and it was a full Wye.

Have fun looking at it, JS
pumpers
 
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:56 pm

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby pumpers » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:02 am

Regarding the junction at Belfast, a key purpose of the L&P was to connect Olean and points west (via the Buffalo, NY and PHiladelphia RR- the Genesee valley canal RR, later PRR) to the DLW at Perkinsville (near Wayland) to run to Hoboken, as part of the earlier-mentioned Globe Fast freight line. So they surely needed the connection at Belfast as in the Pietrak map on the Allegany County site, so trains from Olean could head towards Wayland. There is no trace of that in the 1952 aerial photo I mentioned earlier though. One site I found said there were even through sleeper coaches from Olean to Hoboken for a short while via that route! http://www.railfan.net/lists/erielack-digest/200806/msg00266.html Wonder if you could find that somewhere in an old Official Guide?
JS
pumpers
 
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:56 pm

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby thebigham » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:55 am

Thanks, pumpers, for the aerial photos link!

It does look like a wye was at Belfast Junction.
thebigham
 
Posts: 3591
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:27 pm
Location: Arcade, NY

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby RussNelson » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:01 am

pumpers wrote:You can also clearly see the L&P ROW between Black Creek and 305, and it sure looks like even an abutment on the northwest side of Black Creek, with a shadow on the northwest side of the abutment.

It's in the right spot, yes, it could be. I expect that in the 60 years since, the wandering Black Creek has taken it out.

The crossing of the B&S and the L&P isn't clear, but seems to be near White Creek Rd, and the L&P crossing 19 just after that. COming from Belfast on 19, when 19 bends south just west of White Creek Rd, you can see hints of the L&P on the north/east side of 19, and crossing the Genesee River, and then going into a field.

Yes, it looks on the 1952 aerial like the two meet just west of White Creek Road and cross as you describe.

You can see hints of the L&P continuing southeast, and interestingly, part of modern Route 16 appears to be right on top of the L&P ROW, not separate from it as in Russ's map. Coming up from 19 on Route 16, after about 1-1/2 miles, when 16 takes a bend to the left just before Old State Rd, you can see the L&P Row continuing straight.

I agree. The historic aerials definitely show it running slightly to the north of the road. The road is on the 1906 topos, so I am guessing that they had separate ROWs. I've redrawn it there.

One more thing - up at the junction with the PRR (Canal railroad) by Belfast, it looks like the L&P connects to the north on the PRR (e.g. coming from Angelica trains would continue towards Rochester). The map in the AlleganyCounty link (originally from P. Pietrak) shows the connection heading south. Maybe both were there and it was a full Wye.

I agree. The northern leg of the wye is very obvious. Thanks for your comments!
User avatar
RussNelson
 
Posts: 3815
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:20 am
Location: Potsdam, NY

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby nydepot » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:20 am

I thought I told you that shortly after the 2004 hike? After some of the PS&N H.S. guys rebuffed my questions* I had to dig around the DEC offices at the maps and you could see evidence of the wye. There are older aerials than 1952.

It was a wye, station, and water tower.

Charles

*Some PS&N members had hiked and written articles of their own for The Cannonball. When I contacted them, they "knew nothing" and had "no additional insight." Strange. And I am a fellow member too.

thebigham wrote:Thanks, pumpers, for the aerial photos link!

It does look like a wye was at Belfast Junction.
nydepot
 
Posts: 2142
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:50 am

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby pumpers » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:20 am

nydepot wrote: There are older aerials than 1952.
Charles

Charles, do you know if any of these older aerials are on-line anywhere? Thank, JS
I wish NY had a site like http://www.pennpilot.psu.edu -- which has high resolution aerials covering just about all of PA, from 3 different time periods. I've wasted a lot of time and burned up a lot of internet bandwidth there (but had a lot of fun).
pumpers
 
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:56 pm

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby RussNelson » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:45 am

Cornell has some historic aerials which are older than 1952. They're mostly north and south of Ithaca, although they plan to publish everything they have. Would be wonderful if the entire state was covered!! I used them to definitively establish the route of the P&SB. http://aerial-ny.library.cornell.edu/
User avatar
RussNelson
 
Posts: 3815
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:20 am
Location: Potsdam, NY

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby nydepot » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:25 pm

They aren't that I know of. You have to schedule an appointment at a DEC office saying you want to look at the aerial photos. They have magnifying glasses too!

Charles



pumpers wrote:
nydepot wrote: There are older aerials than 1952.
Charles

Charles, do you know if any of these older aerials are on-line anywhere? Thank, JS
I wish NY had a site like http://www.pennpilot.psu.edu -- which has high resolution aerials covering just about all of PA, from 3 different time periods. I've wasted a lot of time and burned up a lot of internet bandwidth there (but had a lot of fun).
nydepot
 
Posts: 2142
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:50 am

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby erie2937 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:49 pm

The r-o-w maps that we copied at the county hall in Belmont indicate that the L&P track was headed in a southerly or westerly direction when it made the connection with the GVCRR at the grade crossing. Also, the culvert which still exists in the hayfield is oriented in a southwesterly direction. Whether or not there was a wye there cannot be determined from the r-o-w map. Interested parties should visit the area, hike in from behind the truck stop on the south side onto the fill, look at the fill on the north side of the creek and check out the culvert area which is very close to the actual junction. Take a metal detector along. We dug up spikes everywhere we went, some at a depth exceeding twelve inches. Some spikes were only a few inches in length indicating the use of very light rail. Aerial photos are interesting but on-site inspection is even more interesting and very informative. H.T. Guillaume
erie2937
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Railroad grade out of Angelica

Postby pumpers » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:41 pm

Russ, Charles, HTG,
Thanks everyone!
JS
pumpers
 
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:56 pm

PreviousNext

Return to New York State Railfan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests