Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

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Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby pumpers » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:09 pm

A few (5, 7?) years ago there was a plan to realign the D&R as part of a rebuild of highways 15 and 46 and the bridge over the NJT (DLW) line. The D&R through Dover was going to be abandoned and the Rockaway end reconnected to NJT near where the old DLW Rockaway loop used to connect, east of Dover.

Did any of this every come to pass?

THanks, Jim S
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby JPG76 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:19 pm

Nope. They left it alone and built the new bridge around it, actually over it.
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby pumpers » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:41 am

Thanks. They (the county??) seemed fairly sure of the plan at one time, I seem to recall. I wonder why they didn't do it. It made too much sense. It would have simplified the highway project, eliminated a few miles of D&R maintenance on a stretch that didn't have customers, and eliminated over a dozen grade crossings in Dover. Although I admit it needed a new bridge over the Rockaway river (which isn't much of a river there). Maybe the environmental studies would have held up the highway project too long... JS
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby cjvrr » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:20 am

Pampers,

The 15/46 project was NJDOT. The railroad is owned by the County. The County tried to get NJDOT to change their design to include the realignment. NJDOT said no as it was way out of their project scope. It would have cost them less to include the realignment but that argument fell on deaf ears.

The County has continued to press for a realignment of the track. However County budgets continue to be held constant from year to year and the cost of the rail project hasn't come up high enough in comparison to paving roads and replacing road bridges. We are currently working with The North Jersey Transportation Planning Authority on a concept development plan for the realignment. This is just very preliminary design work to look at alternative alignments. Hopefully the project will become viable for federal or state funding and we will proceed in that manner.

I can not speak to what alignments will be looked at but I can tell you there are some that do not include any large bridge over the Rockaway River. Additionally the realignment would eliminate about a dozen crossings in Dover that all need repair.

Chris Vitz, wearing his Morris County Engineer hat for this post...
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby pumpers » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:57 pm

cjvrr wrote: NJDOT said no as it was way out of their project scope. It would have cost them less to include the realignment but that argument fell on deaf ears..

Ahh, indeed sounds like the bureaucratic (and very frustrating) "it makes too much sense " argument.
Good luck in your future efforts,
JS
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby pumpers » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:13 pm

cjvrr wrote:I can not speak to what alignments will be looked at but I can tell you there are some that do not include any large bridge over the Rockaway River. Additionally the realignment would eliminate about a dozen crossings in Dover that all need repair.

I see now that if the new alignment from NJT follows that of the old DLW ROckaway loop, no crossings of the Rockaway RIver are needed.
I am guessing it is only a few trains a week on the D&R, so I am guessing traffic through Dover won't be an issue.

Where does M&E service the D&R from? Are cars held at Lake junction, for example? WHere does NS actually interchange with M&E?

Jim S
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & Rockaway?

Postby cjvrr » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:21 pm

Trainlawyer wrote:Chris,

Did anyone do a comparison of the costs of rebuilding the existing crossings against the cost of the additional interlocking which would be needed for the new connection and the 'headache cost' of having to route the D&R freight movements through the station and yard throat connections amongst the commuter trains?
GME


All that will be looked at with the new study. You are correct that "it looks good on paper" to eliminate the crossings and create a shorter route, but the cost of a new interlocking on NJT and associated right of way costs may very well outweigh the benefit.

pumpers;

The thought is to look at following the former DL&W Dover & Rockaway Loop. The right of way is still fairly contiguous and a crossover of some type would be built south of Route 46 west of Franklin Road. That area contains wetlands.

Again all this is very preliminary and different alignments need to be reviewed as part of the funding source.

As far as I know all cars to and from the D&R are routed to Lake Junction. That is the interchange point with NS.
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby Donko142 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:20 pm

Hello all, while I'm not in the loop on this and my info is second hand, it is from a good friend pretty high up in NJT. I have lived in the area my whole life, I hunted and rode my dirt bike in this area for decades. The old ROW (I believe this was CNJ) is very open and not over grown. If you google earth "Cummington Dr at Palmer Rd in Denville NJ"' you will see a large building across from this intersection on a big lot with an old helacoptor pad, lots of trucks. The old ROW is directly behind this Building. Follow it right to Rt 46. The cinder bed goes directly to and through the parking lot of Mc Willians Forge then straight approx 1/4 to the RT 46 Bridge. If the parking lot issue could be worked out (maybe pick up a customer) the ROW could tie into the now D&R with ease around Rt 46 and the concrete plant, the ROW's are less then 200 feet apart.

$$$ As I was told NJT has NO INTEREST AT ALL in putting in a switch at the location of the old CNJ interchange (which would make this easy, but it's their RR). They wanted the switch put in at East Dover Yard, just East of Salem St. I'm no expert, but here's my guess. Switch with wood, approx 2 miles to old CNJ from E Dover, that means 2 miles of 132RE plus 6200 ties, stone and OTM to get to the old interchange. Now add approx 1 mile more to the Rt46 connection to the now D&R and another switch. While you would not need a bridge and I don't believe there's a wet land issue there, your still looking at a solid 3 miles of serious money. Maybe 2-3 million ?? It very well """MAY""" be cheaper to upgrade the small X-buck only crossings in Dover.

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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby sullivan1985 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:47 pm

Revisiting an old post with new information...

In the last few months some NJT engineers have spotted survey crews taking measurements along the north side of the M&E between the East end of Dover Interlocking and the Rockaway Loop.

Rumors (good old railroad rumors) seem to suggest that the new track along the NJT RoW will start from the extension track at Dover Interlocking. This would require the home signal for westvounds to be replaced with a 3-track signal bridge or a cantilever. Either way, that's the latest and greatest on the subject.
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby WhartonAndNorthern » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:26 am

sullivan1985 wrote:Revisiting an old post with new information...

In the last few months some NJT engineers have spotted survey crews taking measurements along the north side of the M&E between the East end of Dover Interlocking and the Rockaway Loop.

Rumors (good old railroad rumors) seem to suggest that the new track along the NJT RoW will start from the extension track at Dover Interlocking. This would require the home signal for westvounds to be replaced with a 3-track signal bridge or a cantilever. Either way, that's the latest and greatest on the subject.


I posted this in the BR&W thread after seeing my town share the project webpage via Facebook: viewtopic.php?f=127&t=165455&start=75#p1487452

I wasn't aware of this 4 year old thread.
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby blockline4180 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:51 pm

sullivan1985 wrote:Revisiting an old post with new information...

In the last few months some NJT engineers have spotted survey crews taking measurements along the north side of the M&E between the East end of Dover Interlocking and the Rockaway Loop.

Rumors (good old railroad rumors) seem to suggest that the new track along the NJT RoW will start from the extension track at Dover Interlocking. This would require the home signal for westvounds to be replaced with a 3-track signal bridge or a cantilever. Either way, that's the latest and greatest on the subject.


Where exactly would the new alignment meet up with the existing ex-CNJ Rockaway Branch beyond the interlocking?? There was talk of using the old DL&W Loop ROW behind McWilliams Forge but don't know if that's still the plan. If they aren't then they would probably have to build a bridge over the Rockaway River.
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby cjvrr » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:00 pm

Thought is still to use the old DL&W Rockaway Loop to a connection with former CNJ just south of the Route 46 bridge overpass. All very preliminary at this time and the process is long with federal dollars involved. We have to study everything and we have to have about a half dozen public meetings. The most recent meeting was the first.
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby ccutler » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:05 pm

Are they abandoning new business prospects from the scrap dealer and other potential shippers on the to-be-abandoned portion?
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Re: Realignment of the Dover & ROckaway?

Postby blockline4180 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:27 pm

ccutler wrote:Are they abandoning new business prospects from the scrap dealer and other potential shippers on the to-be-abandoned portion?


Yet to be known! Besides stuff like this takes time and there is a lot of government and political red tape involved.. Would be surprised if the new connection would be in service 5 years from now!
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