Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

Moderator: David

Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby johnnyloco » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:05 pm

A 64D came in today (9/24/2012) with NS 9852, NS 2670, and BNSF 7467.

Seen here approaching CP Hatch and 36th Street in Pennsauken...
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3212039
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3212041

Trailing units...
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3212043
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3212045

John D.
User avatar
johnnyloco
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:01 pm

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby pumpers » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:46 am

Thanks. Does anyone know how to estimate how much diesel it takes to move those 80 (I think I read that is a common number for these trains?) tanks from North Dakota to NJ? Perhaps based on the number of miles and tons, or number of engines and hours, ... I wonder if the equivalent of one tank car is consumed just to get the oil here, or more. JS
pumpers
 
Posts: 1980
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:56 pm

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby bluedash2 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:51 pm

pumpers wrote:Thanks. Does anyone know how to estimate how much diesel it takes to move those 80 (I think I read that is a common number for these trains?) tanks from North Dakota to NJ? Perhaps based on the number of miles and tons, or number of engines and hours, ... I wonder if the equivalent of one tank car is consumed just to get the oil here, or more. JS

NS has been bringing in over 100 cars lately, more like around 110. What they do is deliver about 75 cars (via CSAO from Pavonia yard), then after those empties get pulled, the remaining cars get delivered on a separate trip. The CP trains were bringing in around 77 cars but they haven't brought any in for a little while-it's been all NS.
bluedash2
 
Posts: 332
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:11 pm

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby johnnyloco » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:22 pm

From what I heard, there won't be anymore 64Z trains. CP has handed over their Chicago based traffic to NS.
Just what I heard. I'm not familiar with their operations in that area. I'd like to hear more about that.
John D.
User avatar
johnnyloco
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:01 pm

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby pumpers » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:42 pm

pumpers wrote:Thanks. Does anyone know how to estimate how much diesel it takes to move those 80 (I think I read that is a common number for these trains?) tanks from North Dakota to NJ? Perhaps based on the number of miles and tons, or number of engines and hours, ... I wonder if the equivalent of one tank car is consumed just to get the oil here, or more. JS

I'll guess at an answer myself. I found on-line that CSX says it can move 1 ton of freight 500 miles on a gallon of diesel. http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-csx/projects-and-partnerships/fuel-efficiency/. From the N. Dakota/Montana border to PHiladelphia is ~1800 miles by car by google maps, so estimate 2000 miles by rail (not quite so direct). So that is 4 gallons per ton to go Philadlephia. A gallon of crude is about 7 pounds, and a tank car is about 30,000 gallons. That is 210,000 net pounds, plus the empty car, so maybe 250,000 total (probably less than the 263,000 limit on many lines), or 125 tons per tank car. 100 tanks in a train is 12,500 tons. Multiply by 4 gallons of diesel used per ton, you get 50,000 gallons, slighly less than 2 tankloads. Then there is the return trip of empties (much lighter). So figure about 60,000 gallons or 2 tankloads per 100 tank train round trip, which means 2% of the oil transported (assuming crude and diesel are equivalent). In terms of $$$, 60,000 gallons x $4.00/gallon for diesel (maybe too high for bulk?) is $240,000 to move the 100 tanks! Wow. Did I make a mistake?
30,000 gallons in a tank is about 700 barrels. For 100 tanks, 70,000 barrels. THen the crude which was moved was worth, if you assume $70/barrel, about $5,000,000. So about 5% of value of the oil is just fuel to move it.
JS
I wonder what the cost is of all the crew time, share of track maintenance and engine time, tank car wear and tear, overhead, etc compared to that. All together, I would guess at least as much as the fuel. Anyone know what the actual cost per gallon (or tank car) is roughtly to move this oil by train to NJ/Philadelphia, or roughtly what the railroads charge?
pumpers
 
Posts: 1980
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:56 pm

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby SecaucusJunction » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:15 pm

Oh man... my head is spinning...
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
SecaucusJunction
 
Posts: 3057
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:40 pm
Location: NS Watchdog

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby Jtgshu » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:39 pm

Well its still cheaper and much quicker than building a pipeline inbetween the two places that the train is running!
On the RR, "believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"
John, aka "JTGSHU" passed away on August 26, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion to railroading at railroad.net.
User avatar
Jtgshu
 
Posts: 11744
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:32 pm
Location: MP 39.1

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby kilroy » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:52 pm

Boy, what's withthe sudden concen with how much fuel it takes to move a train? We're having a similar discussion over in the NJT forum.

Here is somwthing I posted there as support for the CSX claim.

Support for that claim:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/05/how-efficient-is-a-freight-train/

http://www.sciencebuzz.org/blog/freight-train-miles-gallon
Why do we drive on parkways and park in driveways?
User avatar
kilroy
 
Posts: 874
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 am
Location: Central Jersey

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby michaelk » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:59 pm

pumpers wrote:
pumpers wrote:.... In terms of $$$, 60,000 gallons x $4.00/gallon for diesel (maybe too high for bulk?) is $240,000 to move the 100 tanks! ...?


I'd GUESS that they dont pay "retail" prices for fuel. Airlines for example buy contracts to keep prices steady (But i guess they use tons more fuel)- Delta even bought a share of a refinery in Philly to get steady fuel costs. On a MUCH smaller size- even homeowners can "lock in" prices for home heating fuel for the eyar. Also I think something like 50 cents a gallon of diesel fuel at a truck stop is highway taxes...

That said- I dont think it's like they pay 40 cents - maybe $3 so you'd be in the ball park and it's well over $100k even if it's 25% cheaper.

Makes me wonder what it costs to ship a tanker from the middle east to the ports here.
michaelk
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:53 am

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby Ken W2KB » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:21 am

michaelk wrote:
pumpers wrote:
pumpers wrote:.... In terms of $$$, 60,000 gallons x $4.00/gallon for diesel (maybe too high for bulk?) is $240,000 to move the 100 tanks! ...?


I'd GUESS that they dont pay "retail" prices for fuel. Airlines for example buy contracts to keep prices steady (But i guess they use tons more fuel)- Delta even bought a share of a refinery in Philly to get steady fuel costs. On a MUCH smaller size- even homeowners can "lock in" prices for home heating fuel for the eyar. Also I think something like 50 cents a gallon of diesel fuel at a truck stop is highway taxes...

That said- I dont think it's like they pay 40 cents - maybe $3 so you'd be in the ball park and it's well over $100k even if it's 25% cheaper.

Makes me wonder what it costs to ship a tanker from the middle east to the ports here.


That and railroads don't pay the motor vehicle taxes like trucks and autos do so the cost is reduced.
~Ken :: Fairmont ex-UP/MP C436 MT-14M1 ::
Black River Railroad Historical Trust :: [/url]
User avatar
Ken W2KB
 
Posts: 5717
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:27 pm
Location: Lebanon Township, Hunterdon County, New Jersey & Tiverton, RI USA

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby wolfboy8171981 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:11 am

I have no problem with CSX's claim.

However its misleading.

Just wait until the Crude Oil trains make North Jersey its port of call.
wolfboy8171981
 

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby blockline4180 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:27 am

wolfboy8171981 wrote:
Just wait until the Crude Oil trains make North Jersey its port of call.


Wolf,

Is there any way you can elaborate on this?? Do you have any inside information or some sort of timetable when the oil train may start running into Linden, Perth Amboy or wherever else they are destined to go??

Also how many oil trains a day on the Lehigh line can you foresee in the future??

Thanks!
Steve
~Steve Pellettiere
Co-Moderator: DL&W/Erie/EL Forum
"Each of us makes his own weather, determines the color of the skies in the emotional universe which he inhabits."
User avatar
blockline4180
 
Posts: 5518
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:58 am
Location: NJ and me, Broke Together!

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby wolfboy8171981 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:51 am

blockline4180 wrote:
wolfboy8171981 wrote:
Just wait until the Crude Oil trains make North Jersey its port of call.


Wolf,

Is there any way you can elaborate on this?? Do you have any inside information or some sort of timetable when the oil train may start running into Linden, Perth Amboy or wherever else they are destined to go??

Also how many oil trains a day on the Lehigh line can you foresee in the future??

Thanks!
Steve


Let me put it this way. Think about where the trains go in South Jersey /PA/DE. Think about a few sites along the chemical coast, and how much larger they are. One Refinery has purchased 2000 tank cars. Yes i said 2000.

I do not see anything moving until sometime in 2014.
wolfboy8171981
 

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby johnnyloco » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:06 pm

2/2/2013
The Penn Central heritage unit arrived late night Friday/early Saturday morning on 64D at Pavonia Yard in Camden.

Seen here by the engine house-
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3358174

Two from the State Street overpass-
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3358172
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3358173

John D.
User avatar
johnnyloco
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:01 pm

Re: Oil trains for southern New Jersey

Postby johnnyloco » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:41 pm

User avatar
johnnyloco
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:01 pm

Next

Return to New Jersey Railfan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests