Engine weights

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Engine weights

Postby Allen Hazen » Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:21 am

In the past few days therre has been a lot of talk about NJT (New Jersey) and AMT (Montreal) placing a big (several dozen units) order for dual mode (diesel/overhead AC) locomotives for commuter service with Bombardier.

(One has to applaud at least the willingness of two agencies to order a common design: this is the only way to bring the price down to the believable!)

Apparently the diesel to be used is the Caterpillar 3512: light-weight, high-speed (1500 or 1800 rpm). This makes sense: you want to keep the weight down on a passenger locomotive, and after all this one has to carry the innards of a straight electric about in addition to its diesel-electric workings. But wait: ONE 3512 doesn't have the oomph needed, so the design apparently incorporates TWO diesel-generator sets! And, on the basis of about a minute's web-browsing, it seems to me that two 3512 gets you a total weight not too far short of, say, a 12-710 (though it apparently CAN get you more power).

I have a feeling that the detail design process for these locomotives is going to be a strugggle to shave ounces....
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Re: Engine weights

Postby PullmanCo » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:55 pm

Allen Hazen wrote:In the past few days therre has been a lot of talk about NJT (New Jersey) and AMT (Montreal) placing a big (several dozen units) order for dual mode (diesel/overhead AC) locomotives for commuter service with Bombardier.

(One has to applaud at least the willingness of two agencies to order a common design: this is the only way to bring the price down to the believable!)

The current price is $12 million per unit. That's not within reason, or do you think it is? It's certainy unprecedented.

There has also been a lot of talk as to things like the option for 63 additional units on NJT's part, and whether or not it would be more worth it to spend the public's money on electrification instead, especially since NJT is beefing up its fleet of ALP-46s with ALP-46As and also looking at purchasing about 110 new EMUs. If you don't extend the wires, you limit the places that either of those can go.
Allen Hazen wrote:Apparently the diesel to be used is the Caterpillar 3512: light-weight, high-speed (1500 or 1800 rpm). This makes sense: you want to keep the weight down on a passenger locomotive, and after all this one has to carry the innards of a straight electric about in addition to its diesel-electric workings. But wait: ONE 3512 doesn't have the oomph needed, so the design apparently incorporates TWO diesel-generator sets! And, on the basis of about a minute's web-browsing, it seems to me that two 3512 gets you a total weight not too far short of, say, a 12-710 (though it apparently CAN get you more power).

I have a feeling that the detail design process for these locomotives is going to be a strugggle to shave ounces....

Such a design is uncommon (or even nonexistent) on road diesels though, is not that the case? And what is the life expectancy of a CAT 3512 compared to a 12-710 or a 12-645?

I also find it interesting that SEPTA has expressed no interest in this remarkable experiment as yet. Nor Amtrak, since the design would be (if it works) more flexible than what would be available with the P32AC-DM dual-mode. Wouldn't a plethora of buyers drive the price down?

As for "shaving ounces", remember that the weight limit on the former PRR is 288,000 pounds, lighter than the limit for B-B locomotives on other roads (around 295,000 lbs). Can Tier II requirements, up-to-date crashworthiness, and power requirements along with the weight requirements be balanced so readily? (Caterpillar's web site cites all 3512 diesels as Tier I compliant, V12 and four-stroke. I presume that the 3512C is to go into what is to be apparently designated the ALP-45DP, being rated in the 2000-range in terms of horsepower; two of those weigh 33,000 lbs together.)
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Re: Engine weights

Postby MEC407 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:32 pm

I'm sorry but this thing has "debacle" written all over it. :(
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Re: Engine weights

Postby diburning » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:54 am

Isn't the $12 million price tag for GE's EP42DC or something like that? (the Diesel-Electric Hybrid GEVO)
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Re: Engine weights

Postby TREnecNYP » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:41 am

Wanna clear something up here...

The ALP-45 is based on the proven TRAXX platform, of which we currently have 28 ALP-46, and 2 ALP-46a, which are the catenary AC variant of the TRAXX family, modified to fit the needs of the AMTRAK loading gauge and NJT specs.

There are folks who think that this is going to be some monstrous ungainly loco, when in fact it's going to be a slightly taller & boxier looking single ended ALP-46. The weight would be under anything i can think of just based on its looks. I mean the DD2 and especially the E60...., and other larger locos were certainly up near the weight limits of not over.

The diesel engines will be located between the truck pivots, with the electrical power equipment towards the rear, the control circuitry behind the cab. I believe the weight distribution will be about 55/45 if not better.

That all being said i think the weight will be a non-issue. SEPTA should get a few for expansion past electrified lines. Newtown, Reading, Bethlehem etc etc.

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Re: Engine weights

Postby v8interceptor » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:02 pm

diburning wrote:Isn't the $12 million price tag for GE's EP42DC or something like that? (the Diesel-Electric Hybrid GEVO)

While General Electric has said they could build such a unit they do not currently catalog one and there are no orders on the books for any GE passenger diesels.
Perhaps you're thinking of the Hybrid (Diesel/Battery/Electric) ES44AC GE is testing? That is a six motor freight locomotive...
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Re: Engine weights

Postby DutchRailnut » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:54 pm

Incorrect , GE does have a new GEnesis GEVO 4200 Hp AC propulsion unit on its books.
Maybe not on its website but they have ofered it to both Amtrak and commuter agencies.
infact they stated a single or dual mode unit are prety close in price and performance.
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Re: Engine weights

Postby Allen Hazen » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:48 pm

Gary Larimer (I think) posted a link to the Loconotes Yahoo group recently (it's 6.x.2010 as I write), to a "Railway Age" story about the new NJT dual-mode units: one is apparently on display at Innotrans in Berlin.
<http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/njt-amt-dual-power-prototype-spotlighte\
d-at-innotrans.html>

Story says the maximum speed is 125 mph, and axle loading 72,000 lbs. Now, 125 mph isn't FAST by world railway standards, and 72,000 lbs/axle has been surpassed many times, but has anyone every tried running this fast AND this heavy?

Sorry, I think the time has come to either build much lighter passenger locomotives or re-introduce the A1A truck!
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