Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

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Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby Otto Vondrak » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:29 pm

I was reading a news clipping from 1969 that describes a trip on the LA&L... "We chugged past two silver passenger cars of the 20th Century Limited that had been used by former Governor Thomas E. Dewey and were on a siding waiting for more record-breaking crowds." Anyone know what cars these could be? I only knew about the heavyweight converted Stillwells from the Erie.

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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby TB Diamond » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:40 pm

Otto:

The cars you mention were definitely ex-NYC. Have a broadside photo of one of the cars sitting on the station track at Livonia. The name plate read: THOMAS E. DEWEY. Have another photo of both of the cars coupled together on the dock track at Lakeville with number 38 sitting next to them. Will get the photos out tomorrow and will relate car numbers as best I can. Heard that Amtrak looked at both cars back in 1971, but did not purchase either.
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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby VTM » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:21 am

lvl-coa-bs.jpg
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Photo courtesy of the Fallen Flags site. LAL 2952 and 2562 Livonia, NY
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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby TB Diamond » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:16 am

The THOMAS E. DEWEY was car number 2952.

Recall being anywhere near correct, I do not believe that either ex-NYC car was used in excursion service to any degree.

Seems that both cars were sold prior to the elimination of passenger service on the LA&L.
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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby VTM » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:19 am

Both of these cars were utilized as overflow cars during peak demand in the Fall foliage season. They were used perhaps maybe two or three weekends out of the year. Regular train consist was 2501, 2619 and 2508.

My understanding is that the original Thomas E. Dewey car was actually a parlor car. While enroute to the LAL is was cornered or otherwise damaged in a sideswipe or raking incident. The nameplates were removed from the car and reapplied to a coach offered in substitution for the damaged parlor car. I am sure there is an NYC authority that could possibly verify or disclaim this.

AMTK did in fact inspect these cars at one time. I was present during the inspection.

Both these cars moved off line along with the 2501 (Boonton combine), 2508, 2619 (Stillwell) and the 2511 (NYC heavyweight coach) to the Gettysburg Railroad. Cars moved in one consist.
1978-1979

All cars with exception of the Boonton car retained their original road numbers from prior ownership.

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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby Otto Vondrak » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:52 pm

Wow- thanks very much all of you for the information.

VTM wrote:... and the 2511 (NYC heavyweight coach) to the Gettysburg Railroad.


LAL had an NYC heavyweight, too?

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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby VTM » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:59 am

2511.jpg
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LAL 2511 ...EX NYC 2511 .. EX B&A ?

Car received by LAL in NYC two tone grey scheme. Repainted by LAL in Shell (as in Shell Oil) Yellow and Tudor Brown paint. Later repaints utilized "Caterpillar Yellow" as Shell yellow tended to fade rapidly

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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby pablo » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:03 pm

Good to see you alive and well, VTM.

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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby Otto Vondrak » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:59 pm

I appreciate the info, sir. I'm learning all sorts of things about the old fleet!
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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby Otto Vondrak » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:34 pm

VTM wrote:My understanding is that the original Thomas E. Dewey car was actually a parlor car. While enroute to the LAL is was cornered or otherwise damaged in a sideswipe or raking incident. The nameplates were removed from the car and reapplied to a coach offered in substitution for the damaged parlor car. I am sure there is an NYC authority that could possibly verify or disclaim this.


The thing about parlor cars stuck in the back of my head for awhile... when I realized that the Central didn't have a large fleet of parlor cars, like the PRR and the NH. I also wondered about the name "Thomas E. Dewey." I pulled out my copy of "Great Steel Fleet" from TLC and read that there were six Budd parlor cars built for the Empire State Express in 1941. They were named for New York governors Tilden, Smith, Miller, Hughes, Morton, and Lehman. Dewey served as governor of New York from 1943-1954, so I doubt that a car built in 1941 would be named for a future governor... or later renamed for a sitting governor. I wonder if "Thomas E. Dewey" wasn't someone's idea posthumous tribute applied to a private car?

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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby VTM » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:50 am

Otto:

Good theory, however the car arrived with nameplate above the car number plate in full NYC paint and lettering. The story as previously related is what I recall being told by parties in the know at the time.

Someone later goofed and started the repaint (in yellow) of the New York Central letterboards. It was not intended that this be done however, and after certain luminaries cooled down it was later shrugged off and that is when the boards were repainted Tudor brown with Penn Central style lettering and numbers.

Net result: there must have been a car somewhere on NYC which was named Thomas E. Dewey. My understanding is that NYC did not name coaches. Again I defer to NYC authorities.

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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby Otto Vondrak » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:15 pm

VTM wrote:Net result: there must have been a car somewhere on NYC which was named Thomas E. Dewey. My understanding is that NYC did not name coaches. Again I defer to NYC authorities.


I thought the same thing, but it turns out they had a number of named coaches.

I think I may have unearthed part of the mystery...

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC- ... tsub=dewey

This roster shows NYC coach 2564 (built 1941 as a 56-seat coach) was the "Thomas E. Dewey," and that the name was indeed applied to it in 1954 (after Dewey had left office). This roster also shows the car retired in January 1967 and no disposition. At some point, the "TED" nameplates must have been transferred to the 2952 (built in 1947 as a 56-seat coach) prior to delivery to the LAL. The same roster shows 2952 was retired in June 1966 and "sold to LAL."

The second coach, 2562 (built 1939 as 60-seat coach) was retired September 1965 and "sold to LAL."

While I love all things New York Central, I think the LAL-styled letter boards look sharp on those stainless cars!

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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby tjflynn » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:10 pm

It would appear at least the former 2952 is still earning its keep, rolling along behind F40s and P42s as VIA 8147. The Canadian Trackside Guide 2008 lists it as exGettysburg 2952, exxLAL 2952, nee NYC 2952. The HEP-equipped car was rebuilt by VIA, and now has a snack bar, and seats for 60 passengers. I'll start watching for it. Any idea what happened to the 2562?
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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby VTM » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:22 am

There was a private owner which bought the car from the Gettysburg and then upgraded the car to be AMTK compatible. To the best of my recollection this party was from Ohio. The car operated in several excursions, some of which I think were the NW 611 trips.

Nice to know that this car continues on as both God and the Budd Company had intended.

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Re: Old LAL passenger cars - NYC?

Postby Otto Vondrak » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:56 am

Wow! What a lineage! Thank you for the update!

edit: wow, VIA posts roster info (sort of)...

http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail ... 8100-8147/

Most of these cars were built in the 1950s for use by the CPR on their Canadian and Dominion trains. VIA Rail acquired these stainless-steel cars in 1978, alongside similar cars acquired secondhand from various railroads in the United States to augment the fleet. However, cars 8130 to 8147 (built in 1946-1947) didn’t enter service until the early 1990s.


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