Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

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Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby scottychaos » Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:46 am

All five of the Tioga Central Alcos in Wellsboro PA have been purchased by the Livonia Avon & Lakeville.
RS3m No. 506 and S2 No. 14 are planned to operate.
the three RS1's are in bad shape, and were purchased for parts. they will be parted out and scrapped.

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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby DutchRailnut » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:51 pm

506 is a RS3u and not a RS3m.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby scottychaos » Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:57 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:506 is a RS3u and not a RS3m.


maybe..maybe not.
there are actual D&H written records that say RS3m, and the D&H itself put RS3m on the repainted 502:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=3720714

no one is really sure where RS3u came from, but it is likely just railfan misinformation.
Its also possible the D&H did use RS3u at one time, perhaps very early on, but I am not aware of any documentation to support this.
We do have actual D&H support for RS3m, written roster data from the railroad itself, and the actual 502 marked as a RS3m by the D&H,
but there is no known actual support for RS3u..it is IMO most likely a railfan myth.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dan ... pics/61837

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Last edited by scottychaos on Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby scottychaos » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:11 pm

and Tioga Central says....RS3u! :P

https://web.archive.org/web/20110717063 ... ipment.cfm

fascinating..
So it seems officially, there is evidence for both.
D&H did say RS3m on at least one unit, photos prove it..there are no known D&H records for RS3u, but someome might be able to dig them up..

Tioga Central officially said RS3u..
I wonder what LAL will call it?

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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby nydepot » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:28 am

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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby Alcoman » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:16 pm

Consider what the letters mean: " M" means modified and "U " means upgraded. In this case, it was both. However, these D&H units were rebuilt by Morrison-Knudsen and given an UPGRADED horsepower from 1600 to 2000 hp, A 12-251 engine and they reworked the TM blower system which amounts to an UPGRADE. Like the D&M units, they were given the letter "U" to signify an UPGRADE regardless how the railroad labeled them. In Dick Steinbrenners book, they are referred to RS-3u in all references.
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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby scottychaos » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:38 pm

Alcoman wrote:Consider what the letters mean: " M" means modified and "U " means upgraded. In this case, it was both. However, these D&H units were rebuilt by Morrison-Knudsen and given an UPGRADED horsepower from 1600 to 2000 hp, A 12-251 engine and they reworked the TM blower system which amounts to an UPGRADE. Like the D&M units, they were given the letter "U" to signify an UPGRADE regardless how the railroad labeled them. In Dick Steinbrenners book, they are referred to RS-3u in all references.


Good definations, and that all makes sense, except for this part:

Like the D&M units, they were given the letter "U" to signify an UPGRADE regardless how the railroad labeled them.


Regardless of how the railroad labeled them? the railroad is, IMO, the only entity with the authority to call them anything! ;)
(and given the letter "U" by who? that is the question..)
I suppose we could include MK too as an official naming entity.
So MK, and the D&H, have the authority to call them *something*..The definitions of "upgraded" and "modified" are really irrelevant IMO..
Some railroad rebuild locomotives and give them an m, some a u, some a Dash-2 designation, some say Dash-3.
The D&H Alco PA's came back from rebuilding with the designation PA-4.
Railroads are basically free to choose anything they like..the only "official" designation is what the railroad or rebuilder chooses to use.

So we still have nothing official from the D&H concerning RS3u.
current list of sources:

RS3m evidence:
1. D&H paper records that say RS3m, from the poster in the yahoo discussion linked above.
2. The actual D&H 502 clearly labeled RS3M by the D&H itself.
3. D&H classification for "regular" RS3's was ARS-20. D&H classification for the rebuilds was ARS-20m.

RS3u evidence:
1. The Tioga Central Railroad has actually called the 506 a RS3u while it has been in their possession.
2. The book "The American Locomotive Company: A Centennial Remembrance" by Richard T. Steinbrenner (2003) says RS3u in all instances.

The case for RS3m is still a runaway winner.
No known, yet, factual proof to support RS3u from the D&H or MK.
MK called them TE56-4A, which supports neither m or u.

thanks,
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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby traingeek8223 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:43 am

This is being over thought. "Railfan" terminology states a locomotive rebuilt with other then the original manufacturer's components gets a "m" designation and a locomotive rebuilt with more modern components resulting in a significant change from original, from the original manufacturer, get a "u" designation. Note I said "railfan". Railroad's can call them anything they want (Reading called their RS3s RS1s). Railfans set the terminology on most early locomotive models. ALCO originally referred to RS3s simply as "1600 Horsepower Road Switcher". When rebuilt, Morrison Knudsen called them TE-56-4s.
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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby traingeek8223 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:09 am

Back to the original point of topic: Great news indeed that two of these locomotives will see future service! Too bad about the RS1s, though I certainly understand. Wonder if there are enough good wheel sets among them to get LA&L 20 back on the road? Too bad there isn't a group out there that could save the shell of NYS&W 240.
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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby Benjamin Maggi » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:13 am

Is the Tioga Central replacing the Alcos with different engines, or closing down?
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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:23 am

a RS3m is Conrail designation for EMD re-engine units with a 12/567 in them.
RS3u is upgrade where a RS3 is upgraded with newer ALCO components including prime mover.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby chrisf » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:27 am

DutchRailnut wrote:a RS3m is Conrail designation for EMD re-engine units with a 12/567 in them.
RS3u is upgrade where a RS3 is upgraded with newer ALCO components including prime mover.

RS3m is far from a specific term.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/Locopi ... x?id=13782
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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby traingeek8223 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:56 am

The C&NW RS3 rebuilds should fall into the RS3u category as they are rebuilt with newer ALCO components.
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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby Alcoman » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:52 pm

Benjamin Maggi wrote:Is the Tioga Central replacing the Alcos with different engines, or closing down?


I did see something recently posted on FB that the W&C are getting 2 F-7's to use in the tourist train. (NOT Confirmed) Makes sense even as I prefer a pair of FPA-4's which are also available.

At least the ALCO's will be given a new home and the parts will extend the life of 2 others...
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Re: Two new Alcos coming to the LAL.

Postby mandealco » Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:08 pm

Hi
Maybe we will get to see something like this on the WNY&P. They do have an important link to the D&H, and this would look very cool.
The photo is my N-scale kitbash from over 25 years ago.
Image
Cheers
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